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South Korea now recycles 95% of its food waste

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Re: South Korea now recycles 95% of its food waste

#141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"someone can provide good evidence that it actually is environmentally beneficial" I don't think anyone is, just that its less bad than the alternatives. You don't drive, presumably you walk or cycle then. Each of those activities have negative environmental externalities compared to not doing them, after all you have to consume extra calories. So while each is infinitely better than driving, they aren't environmenta…

"to me sustainability is about how long you can keep doing something [...] glass is infinitely recyclable, the plastic isn't" Exactly - it's about reuse (ie. infinitely recyclable), and the shift in thinking that comes along with that. Burning plastic releases toxic byproducts into the local environment, and requires us to use more fossil fuel hydrocarbons to make new plastic. On the other hand, instead of transporti…

The key mistake of GP and yours here is this part of GP quote you elided:

> regardless of how much energy it requires (up to a point, and assuming clean energy sources)

The world isn't yet powered through clean energy sources in any significant way. Electricity production runs mostly on fossil fuels, and then electricity is currently only a part of the equation - heating and transportation is still mostly powered by burning hydrocarbons pulled from the ground.

It is not just valid, but very important, to consider sustainability in context of system at the whole. Greedy algorithms don't work here. A glass bottle may be "infinitely recyclable", but if doing the actual recycling involves using energy from unsustainable sources, it's not a sustainable behaviour in itself. Sustainability is an end-to-end thing; if any link isn't, the whole chain isn't.

Now that we've established that glass recycling isn't currently a sustainable practice, we can still consider whether it's better or worse than alternative unsustainable practices. Regular "single use, thin plastic bottles, destination: landfill" approach seems idiotic. But alternatives involve "thick, refillable plastic bottles" (something I recall Germany used to do), or "single use, thin plastic bottles, destination: power plant" which isn't as dumb as it sounds - if it could be made the primary fuel source for said power plants, it's a step up. I reserve judgment on the alternatives, as I have no data. And it's kind of a problem today: regular people don't have an easy way to review end-to-end performance of such strategies. So they vote for convenience, or for whatever looks ecologic.

Burning hydrocarbons has still place in a sustainable future - they're a great high-density energy store, after all. But to make the chain end-to-end sustainable, we'd have to be using clean and sustainable sources to take back all the emissions and to manufacture more hydrocarbons.

EDIT: And to be clear, I'm always biased in favour of reusing and (then) recycling. But the energy calculation has to make sense, because sustainability is in big part an energy management problem (the other big part is habitability management problem - not doing net damage to the ecosystem; but, assuming the will to do it, it also quickly becomes a subset of energy management).

Re: South Korea now recycles 95% of its food waste

#142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The landfill has CH4 off gassing, which is usually burned and used to power things. It also supports it's own ecology and residents. The transporting of rotting food around is pretty ridiculous though. You might make your distributed practices even more efficient with vermicompost / bokashi; by selecting an organism with known beneficial outputs to metabolize the waste you'll end up with a higher conversion to usable…

"which is usually burned" Have you got any sources for the usually? Any ex landfill I've seen just has vents to the open air, and mentions of landfill gas never give the impression its mainstream.

There are plenty of landfill gas capture systems around. Veolia are particularly proud of their so-called "Bio-reactor". These kinds of systems don't work as well as advertised, but if you have a landfill, it's better than nothing. https://www.veolia.com/anz/our-services/our-facilities/landf...

But as others have been saying, it makes much more sense to simply bury the food in your garden. Or collect food waste on a municipal level, which has, for example, been the law in Germany since 2015.

The "dry fermentation" system used in Munich is a particularly good example. They collect food waste in the city, compost and ferment it in a big sealed hall near the soccer stadium, wait 12 weeks for the bacteria to work, collect the resulting biogas to put into their gas network (or power garbage trucks), and sell the leftover organic compost and fertilisers to local residents and farmers. A closed and sustainable cycle.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HF0gU9ljHo4

https://www.awm-muenchen.de/fileadmin/PDF-Dokumente/awm/Fold...

Re: South Korea now recycles 95% of its food waste

#143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"someone can provide good evidence that it actually is environmentally beneficial" I don't think anyone is, just that its less bad than the alternatives. You don't drive, presumably you walk or cycle then. Each of those activities have negative environmental externalities compared to not doing them, after all you have to consume extra calories. So while each is infinitely better than driving, they aren't environmenta…

"to me sustainability is about how long you can keep doing something [...] glass is infinitely recyclable, the plastic isn't" Exactly - it's about reuse (ie. infinitely recyclable), and the shift in thinking that comes along with that. Burning plastic releases toxic byproducts into the local environment, and requires us to use more fossil fuel hydrocarbons to make new plastic. On the other hand, instead of transporti…

[deleted]

Re: South Korea now recycles 95% of its food waste

#144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"to me sustainability is about how long you can keep doing something [...] glass is infinitely recyclable, the plastic isn't" Exactly - it's about reuse (ie. infinitely recyclable), and the shift in thinking that comes along with that. Burning plastic releases toxic byproducts into the local environment, and requires us to use more fossil fuel hydrocarbons to make new plastic. On the other hand, instead of transporti…

The key mistake of GP and yours here is this part of GP quote you elided: > regardless of how much energy it requires (up to a point, and assuming clean energy sources) The world isn't yet powered through clean energy sources in any significant way. Electricity production runs mostly on fossil fuels, and then electricity is currently only a part of the equation - heating and transportation is still mostly powered by…

Right, I'm talking about technically feasible solutions. And it is entirely feasible to power the world with clean, renewable energy. We have the solar capacity to meet hundreds of times our current energy capacity (using less land space than our existing roads). And over 530,000 potential pumped-hydro sites worldwide to store that energy (of which we'd only need a tiny fraction). For example, there are 22,000 sites in Australia, of which we'd only need 20. The research shows that cost will be a non-issue.

http://energy.anu.edu.au/news-events/anu-finds-530000-potent...

Everything else comes down to barriers in the economic and political domains.

Re: South Korea now recycles 95% of its food waste

#145
post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I recently learnt of a food waste recycling method that avoids decomposition and release of methane. It is called bokashi and it uses homolactic fermentation to break down the food waste. Quoting the wikipedia article [1]: > Homolactic fermentation breaks no carbon bonds and emits no gas; its overall equation is C6H12O6 (carbohydrate) → 2 CH3CHOHCOOH (lactic acid). It is a mildly endothermic reaction, emitting no ene…

"It is a mildly endothermic reaction, emitting no energy; the fermentation vessel remains at ambient temperature" Surely if its endothermic the container would get cool???

Perhaps that part of the article could be edited to "remains close to ambient temperature".

Re: South Korea now recycles 95% of its food waste

#146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This sounds more wasteful to me. In terms of manpower and cost of commute.

If it's cheaper for that person to commute in order to eat then it's probably less wasteful from a financial perspective at least. Definitely possible to be even less wasteful of course, but I think without perfect weather and population models (which will never truly exist) it'll be hard to eliminate waste to a certain extent.

Something like this is usually not done out of economic incentives, but because of ethical and emotional incentives. In the end people do it to feel good, but might do more harm, just in another way.

Re: South Korea now recycles 95% of its food waste

#147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The key mistake of GP and yours here is this part of GP quote you elided: > regardless of how much energy it requires (up to a point, and assuming clean energy sources) The world isn't yet powered through clean energy sources in any significant way. Electricity production runs mostly on fossil fuels, and then electricity is currently only a part of the equation - heating and transportation is still mostly powered by…

Right, I'm talking about technically feasible solutions. And it is entirely feasible to power the world with clean, renewable energy. We have the solar capacity to meet hundreds of times our current energy capacity (using less land space than our existing roads). And over 530,000 potential pumped-hydro sites worldwide to store that energy (of which we'd only need a tiny fraction). For example, there are 22,000 sites…

Yup.

The way I see it, we need to optimize our energy use and ecosystem damage output, until we can switch over completely to surplus clean energy. After that, a lot of ecology talk stops to matter. For instance, with surplus energy put to use in collecting, recycling & emission capture, we could use disposable plastics to our hearts' content.

Unfortunately, as you say, widespread deployment of clean & sustainable energy sources comes down to barriers in the economic and political domains. That's why I feel modern ecology needs to optimize for reducing energy use, even if it might mean preferring some locally suboptimal-looking solutions that turn out to be globally more efficient.

Re: South Korea now recycles 95% of its food waste

#148

Norway: 50% of food, 77% of energy in waste, and 97% of toxic waste is recycled. https://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?depth=1&... We are also rebuilding some of our plants to sort waste with machine learning. The initial tests are really promising. Several of them are already sorting out most plastic using spectrometer-sensors, so we don’t need to do it manually. In combination with the machine learnin…

OK but what does this have to do with the original article other than the usual "Europe does it better". That's right, absolutely nothing.

That Europe push technology, not people to solve the recycle problem?

Re: South Korea now recycles 95% of its food waste

#149
post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes my uncle used to feed almost all food waste to his pigs. Then we ate the pigs. Unfortunately suburban Silicon Valley residents don't appreciate backyard pigs.

Chicken will eat a lot of table scraps and are backyard friendly in many places

Chickens will eat almost anything you throw at them.

Re: South Korea now recycles 95% of its food waste

#150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The key mistake of GP and yours here is this part of GP quote you elided: > regardless of how much energy it requires (up to a point, and assuming clean energy sources) The world isn't yet powered through clean energy sources in any significant way. Electricity production runs mostly on fossil fuels, and then electricity is currently only a part of the equation - heating and transportation is still mostly powered by…

Right, I'm talking about technically feasible solutions. And it is entirely feasible to power the world with clean, renewable energy. We have the solar capacity to meet hundreds of times our current energy capacity (using less land space than our existing roads). And over 530,000 potential pumped-hydro sites worldwide to store that energy (of which we'd only need a tiny fraction). For example, there are 22,000 sites…

But we don't currently live in a world that's powered by renewable energy, we live in a world where the vast majority of energy is generated from fossil sources. Making that transition will require decades, billions in investment and a lot of challenging trade-offs.

Here in the real world of 2019, energy is the dominant factor. If we need to dig up landfills to recover materials in 2100, so be it - right now, we have a ticking clock to mitigate the worst effects of the impending climate crisis. We simply cannot afford to waste time on wishful thinking and idealism, we need to cut our carbon emissions hard and fast.

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