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Italy’s austerity-fueled crisis is a warning to the Eurozone

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Re: Italy’s austerity-fueled crisis is a warning to the Eurozone

#141

Post by bostik »

fileeditview wrote: post #137
wazoox wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, and Germany explicitly rejected all attempts and proposals: no Eurobonds, no Green Fund, no fiscal union, no transfers, no nothing. They'll stick to their guns until the whole thing come apart (real soon now: you liked the Brexit? Wait for Italexit. Or Frexit. Sooner than you think).

You also see that leaving the EU is not a clear benefit despite "evil" Germany is on its throne... That's why "Brexit" is taking almost 3 years now and still there is no ultimate progress. Other countries will surely be interested in how this experiment turns out before doing the same..

Disclosure: I'm an EU citizen living in UK.

From what I have gathered, EU's strategy with Brexit has been pretty straightforward: do not even try to impose any further "penalties" on UK on top of what is already taking place without assistance. Just stay put.

The EU can't be seen to dictate internal UK matters - that would only create further animosity (if such a thing is possible, given the rabid UK press). Instead, let the UK repeatedly shoot themselves in the head while going through their cooked-up contortions.

There will be no better deterrent for others in the EU27 than observing Brexit from a relatively safe distance. "Leave, and that will be you. We don't even need to do anything."

And as for watching Brexit unfold at a close distance? It's like looking at a sword swallower trying out a new trick. With a chainsaw.

Re: Italy’s austerity-fueled crisis is a warning to the Eurozone

#142

Post by wazoox »

bostik wrote: post #141
fileeditview wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You also see that leaving the EU is not a clear benefit despite "evil" Germany is on its throne... That's why "Brexit" is taking almost 3 years now and still there is no ultimate progress. Other countries will surely be interested in how this experiment turns out before doing the same..

Disclosure: I'm an EU citizen living in UK. From what I have gathered, EU's strategy with Brexit has been pretty straightforward: do not even try to impose any further "penalties" on UK on top of what is already taking place without assistance. Just stay put. The EU can't be seen to dictate internal UK matters - that would only create further animosity (if such a thing is possible, given the rabid UK press). Instead,…

Let me guess: you're a EU citizen living in _London_. Not exactly the same thing as anywhere else in UK.

For me, watching Brexit from a distance is more akin to seeing people not wanting to leave the Titanic pushed into the lifeboats, dropping from the main deck: sure it's ugly, but wait for the iceberg, and see who are the smart guys afterwards.

Re: Italy’s austerity-fueled crisis is a warning to the Eurozone

#143

Post by wazoox »

Udik wrote: post #132
david-gpu wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You have described the political landscape in Spain to a T. I fear than in the upcoming general elections we will see the rise of the populist far right, and with it further polarization of the political landscape. Source: am Spaniard.

Sorry to hear that. I also wonder how much this depends on local, contingent events, and how much can be attributed to internet and social media, where the outrage is the driver of clicks and attention, and uninformed conversations thrive. Populists are on the rise everywhere. On the side, the bursts of social justice outrage in the US might be just a different, leftwing expression of the same mechanisms that produce…

Populist are on the rise because oligarchy has stolen money and power everywhere. Don't look for pseudo "cultural" reasons (bordering on xenophobia, racism or classism) where a basic Marxist analysis works marvels. Do you really think that Italians are angry and lazy, and Brits too, and Greeks, and Spaniards, and French, and Trump voters? Because of Facebook? Really? Come on. This is silly.

Re: Italy’s austerity-fueled crisis is a warning to the Eurozone

#144

Post by bjelkeman-again »

kmlx wrote: post #94
bjelkeman-again wrote: post #5

I thought it was going to be about Britain. They have been drivning towards the abyss in the last decades. I used to live in London. The difference in public infrastructure and company facilities between the UK and Northern Europe is quite staggering. Now, add the “Ever shrinking Britain” (Scotland leaving after Brexit…, Northern Ireland more part of EU/Ireland than Britain in the future?) to the events and it makes…

abyss? the UK is one of the best examples of capitalism and free trade in the world. London is the world capital of finance, with NYC and Tokyo on 2nd place. the UK is ahead of the RoW when it comes to finance by at least 2 years. northern Europe is too small to matter on the world stage. the Tokyo metropolis is larger than the whole of northern Europe in terms of population and wealth.

> the UK is one of the best examples of capitalism and free trade in the world.

Successful capitalism in my mind is measured in more ways than a finance industry or stock market.

Re: Italy’s austerity-fueled crisis is a warning to the Eurozone

#145

Post by Udik »

wazoox wrote: post #143
Udik wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry to hear that. I also wonder how much this depends on local, contingent events, and how much can be attributed to internet and social media, where the outrage is the driver of clicks and attention, and uninformed conversations thrive. Populists are on the rise everywhere. On the side, the bursts of social justice outrage in the US might be just a different, leftwing expression of the same mechanisms that produce…

Populist are on the rise because oligarchy has stolen money and power everywhere. Don't look for pseudo "cultural" reasons (bordering on xenophobia, racism or classism) where a basic Marxist analysis works marvels. Do you really think that Italians are angry and lazy, and Brits too, and Greeks, and Spaniards, and French, and Trump voters? Because of Facebook? Really? Come on. This is silly.

I'm glad that you asked :)

I think that yes, a lack of economic growth (in some cases) and an increasing disparity in wealth (in others) makes people angry, and distrustful, on the long term. I also think that "oligarchies stole the money" is an incredibly simplistic explanation for the lack of growth- there are at least two factors, the competition from emerging countries and software, that have removed low skilled and low added value jobs from the West. But still the countries who kept up with their industry and education managed to thrive.

On the other hand, the people's anger doesn't come with an understanding of the issues and their causes; it's more of a general bad mood that disrupts everything, what is wrong and what is right in the same way. So that people fight against the problems and the solutions alike.

And yes, I think social media act as a multiplier of this unproductive anger, because they give a voice and an audience to those who lack the minimal educational standards that have been traditionally required to those who wrote for the public. It's classist? Fair. But it's true.

Information used to flow from an educated elite (think of the incredibly ponderous and boring articles of Marxist newspapers, if you want) to the masses, who tried to absorb and follow (with all the risks that this entailed, as well). In Italy the single voice of the communist party, through its press, could reach every peasant and set the line. While now the communication is horizontal and universal, and angry, uninformed opinions spread and reinforce each other. It's clear since a long time (think of tabloid covers) that indignation, outrage, scandal are extremely successful memes. They survive and spread replacing everything else. We need to learn how to deal with this, not with censorship, but culturally.

Re: Italy’s austerity-fueled crisis is a warning to the Eurozone

#146

Post by agapon »

bjelkeman-again wrote: post #12
johnzim wrote: post #7

The Eurozone was never intended to do the damage it has done to PIGS economies but it has. What is worse, is that it has unquestionably been of benefit to Germany, which has one of the strongest hands in shaping the future of the EU. If a macroeconomist had sat down to devise a currency that suffocated Italy, Portugal, Greece and Spain - export driven economies (remember that tourism is an export as you have to buy t…

I am not sure the Euro in itself was the problem, but countries where included before they where ready and not enough mechanisms across the union to help those regions/countries that where struggling. But,hey, I am but an armchair economist.

But they were not "included". Nobody forced them or made the decision for them. The countries (peoples, governments) made their choice. I think that some of them, if not all, even had referendums on joining the euro.

Re: Italy’s austerity-fueled crisis is a warning to the Eurozone

#147

Post by bostik »

wazoox wrote: post #142
bostik wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Disclosure: I'm an EU citizen living in UK. From what I have gathered, EU's strategy with Brexit has been pretty straightforward: do not even try to impose any further "penalties" on UK on top of what is already taking place without assistance. Just stay put. The EU can't be seen to dictate internal UK matters - that would only create further animosity (if such a thing is possible, given the rabid UK press). Instead,…

Let me guess: you're a EU citizen living in _London_. Not exactly the same thing as anywhere else in UK. For me, watching Brexit from a distance is more akin to seeing people not wanting to leave the Titanic pushed into the lifeboats, dropping from the main deck: sure it's ugly, but wait for the iceberg, and see who are the smart guys afterwards.

Fair enough, and you are correct.

As for leaving... uprooting a family is not something you do without a good plan forward.

Re: Italy’s austerity-fueled crisis is a warning to the Eurozone

#150

Post by kmlx »

kazen44 wrote: post #112
kmlx wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

abyss? the UK is one of the best examples of capitalism and free trade in the world. London is the world capital of finance, with NYC and Tokyo on 2nd place. the UK is ahead of the RoW when it comes to finance by at least 2 years. northern Europe is too small to matter on the world stage. the Tokyo metropolis is larger than the whole of northern Europe in terms of population and wealth.

London might be doing great, but the rest of the UK has been left behind decades ago..

Only Yorkshire, North East and North West have been "left behind" (and that's only when compared to the rest of the UK, not the rest of Europe). The rest of the regions (SW, SE, E, both Midlands) have seen increases in wealth of about 30% in the last 20 years.
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