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Emissions fall in Madrid city center thanks to new traffic restrictions

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Re: Emissions fall in Madrid city center thanks to new traffic restrictions

#71

Post by robocat »

ponow wrote: post #59
nextos wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree. I would go further by forcing all new cars to be plug-in hybrids as soon as it is practically doable. Maybe someone with ICE and battery expertise can chip in and clarify whether there are any pitfalls in this approach. I simply don't understand why this is not enforced very soon. Many companies are producing inexpensive hybrids, so it sounds quite doable. And most people, at least in Europe, make really sho…

I see inefficient-yet-hybrid SUVs in Pittsburgh, yet more-efficient-yet-gasoline-only subcompacts would be banned. I frequently see people who won't alter their own wasteful practices (always buying new things, instead of re-using or repairing old ones, for example), yet virtue signal by buying green, driving hybrid, etc. If you really want root out the causes, we need to measure all the contributors, including peopl…

The (unsubsidised) cost of a product or service already exists as a reasonable proxy for waste and petroleum usage.

Are you suggesting we add carbon and pollution taxes to offset some of the the externalities?

Your income level is a superb indicator of how much of the planets resources you are using.

Does taxation that goes to the government change that? Does the government use taxes more "greenly" than consumers?

On topic: if they shut down the centre of Madrid, they could get pollution to zero!

Re: Emissions fall in Madrid city center thanks to new traffic restrictions

#72

Post by llukas »

robocat wrote: post #71
ponow wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see inefficient-yet-hybrid SUVs in Pittsburgh, yet more-efficient-yet-gasoline-only subcompacts would be banned. I frequently see people who won't alter their own wasteful practices (always buying new things, instead of re-using or repairing old ones, for example), yet virtue signal by buying green, driving hybrid, etc. If you really want root out the causes, we need to measure all the contributors, including peopl…

The (unsubsidised) cost of a product or service already exists as a reasonable proxy for waste and petroleum usage. Are you suggesting we add carbon and pollution taxes to offset some of the the externalities? Your income level is a superb indicator of how much of the planets resources you are using. Does taxation that goes to the government change that? Does the government use taxes more "greenly" than consumers? On…

> Your income level is a superb indicator of how much of the planets resources you are using.

Not really. Your spending level is. One can have high income and reinvest or you can spend money you don't have by borrowing.

I'd agree that income level is correlated.

Re: Emissions fall in Madrid city center thanks to new traffic restrictions

#73

Post by Scoundreller »

pkaye wrote: post #61

Just force all the manufacturers to fix their dieselgate cars. Is anything actually being done about it or are they too worried that this will bankrupt the car companies?

It’s a lot harder to do when it will bankrupt your local car companies.

Re: Emissions fall in Madrid city center thanks to new traffic restrictions

#74

Post by vondur »

tim333 wrote: post #51
kingosticks wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And just look at the black cabs. Currently excempt from the ULEZ with their old diesel engines running all day because..? Oh, money.

Money and politics. It's kind of ironic that the government controlled black cabs "are responsible for about 60 per cent of greater London’s NOx emissions from passenger cars" while the mostly unregulated Ubers are mostly relatively clean Priuses. I gather they are gradually trying to switch the black cabs to electric. https://www.independent.co.uk/environment/black-cabs-taxis-a...

I take it that diesels aren’t required to have DEF to reduce the NOx emissions?

Re: Emissions fall in Madrid city center thanks to new traffic restrictions

#75

Post by PeterStuer »

robocat wrote: post #71
ponow wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see inefficient-yet-hybrid SUVs in Pittsburgh, yet more-efficient-yet-gasoline-only subcompacts would be banned. I frequently see people who won't alter their own wasteful practices (always buying new things, instead of re-using or repairing old ones, for example), yet virtue signal by buying green, driving hybrid, etc. If you really want root out the causes, we need to measure all the contributors, including peopl…

The (unsubsidised) cost of a product or service already exists as a reasonable proxy for waste and petroleum usage. Are you suggesting we add carbon and pollution taxes to offset some of the the externalities? Your income level is a superb indicator of how much of the planets resources you are using. Does taxation that goes to the government change that? Does the government use taxes more "greenly" than consumers? On…

>The (unsubsidised) cost of a product or service already exists as a reasonable proxy for waste and petroleum usage.

Not even close; If market economies are good at one thing, it is finding products that concentrate their benefits while at the same time distributing their negative externalities.

Re: Emissions fall in Madrid city center thanks to new traffic restrictions

#76

Post by PeterStuer »

kingosticks wrote: post #47
tomelders wrote: post #39

I don't own a car because I'm fortunate enough to live in London with an awesome public transport system and a half decent cycle network. But the air quality here sucks and pollution from cars is through the fucking roof. We just introduced an Ultra Low Emission area scheme that's a half hearted attempt to do what they've done in Madrid, but for me that doesn't go far enough. I think we should just ban any vehicles t…

And just look at the black cabs. Currently excempt from the ULEZ with their old diesel engines running all day because..? Oh, money.

And if you are callous to a psychopath level, you can always create your own 'cab' company just so you can drive your Mercedes S500L everywhere, including public transport priority lanes and public transport only zones.

https://www.irishcentral.com/news/ryanair-boss-michael-olear...

Re: Emissions fall in Madrid city center thanks to new traffic restrictions

#77

Post by adrianN »

lazyjones wrote: post #17
ekianjo wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Air quality in the center has also improved, with pollution falling by 8.9% compared to the historic average for the December-March period, according to measurements taken from the Plaza del Carmen monitoring station, the only one located within the Madrid Central area. 8.9% ? Is a significant difference? Was the previous more polluted air any dangerous to breathe comparatively to all other daily risks people face?…

> 8.9% ? Is a significant difference? Yes, but how much of it is due to improvements in newer combustion engines and new EU-wide emission norms?

The improvements would have to be either massive, or the fraction of new cars on the road would have to be much higher than I'd expect.

Re: Emissions fall in Madrid city center thanks to new traffic restrictions

#78

Post by adrianN »

kzcqt wrote: post #28
amelius wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would you say the same about regulations against smoking?

Definitely I would. As a restaurant owner I should be able to dictate who can and who can't smoke in my premises. Having said that, cigarettes should be much more expensive so we can fund healthcare.

Smokers are actually cheaper for the healthcare system because they die early and don't require years and years of intensive medical care during old age.

Re: Emissions fall in Madrid city center thanks to new traffic restrictions

#79

Post by adrianN »

damnyou wrote: post #41
impostir wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They didn't block all personal transport, only most no-local vehicles. I would be a lot more convinced by the pro car arguments if they debated the actual issues. No one is saying destroy all cars and roads, the argument is on the importance of the car in the general transit system.

There is a very large and quite vocal "ban cars" contingent on Twitter. I'm not personally a fan of how much the US prioritizes car transport, but I do see the utility of personal transportation.

Personal transportation doesn't have to be a three ton hunk of steel.

Re: Emissions fall in Madrid city center thanks to new traffic restrictions

#80

Post by lozenge »

PeterStuer wrote: post #76
kingosticks wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And just look at the black cabs. Currently excempt from the ULEZ with their old diesel engines running all day because..? Oh, money.

And if you are callous to a psychopath level, you can always create your own 'cab' company just so you can drive your Mercedes S500L everywhere, including public transport priority lanes and public transport only zones. https://www.irishcentral.com/news/ryanair-boss-michael-olear...

That is creative for sure but wouldn't work in London. Only the official black cabs can use bus lanes. I suppose you could hire a driver for about £40k a year. Less if you let them use the vehicle while you're abroad.
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