Americans Are Delaying Health Care Until Tax Refunds Arrive • Hacker News Board

Re: Americans Are Delaying Health Care Until Tax Refunds Arrive

#101

Post by jfk13 » Sat, Apr 13, 2019, 9:52 PM UTC

awinder wrote: post #62

jfk13 wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If both the state and federal governments each had a 55% tax rate, you'd be justified in questioning the rates and voting for a different government! Just as I expect people would complain if there was just a single tax authority, but it set a rate of 110%. Assume for now that we accept the federal government is entitled to raise money for its programs by taxing people's incomes (yes, some people might disagree, but…

At the end of the day I think it matters because high tax states have already been subsidizing red states and one of the pressure release valves was that they weren’t taxed twice on the same income. I.e: https://www.apnews.com/2f83c72de1bd440d92cdbc0d3b6bc08c So you remove this pressure valve and skew those numbers to an even wider margin and you have, I would say justifiable, consternation about what we are doing he…

If the deduction is removed, presumably the tax rate could be adjusted downwards to compensate.

Arguably, it would make more sense to allow a deduction on state income tax for federal tax paid. That way the federal tax -- which (in theory, at least) pays for services that benefit all states -- is imposed consistently across all the states. Individual states can then decide how much to tax their citizens to pay for the state's local services, without skewing how the federal tax burden is applied.

Re: Americans Are Delaying Health Care Until Tax Refunds Arrive

#102

Post by bryan11 » Sat, Apr 13, 2019, 9:52 PM UTC

As employers switch to High Deductible Health Plans where insurance doesn't kick in until one has spent a deductible of several thousand dollars, many people are delaying health care in general. A doctor's visit that once cost a co-pay of $30 is now frequently a cash price from $130 to $400, plus more for lab work. With higher costs and much of them unknown in advance, many skip getting things checked until it seems absolutely necessary.

Re: Americans Are Delaying Health Care Until Tax Refunds Arrive

#103

Post by mises » Sat, Apr 13, 2019, 9:56 PM UTC

phil21 wrote: post #94

Waterluvian wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I felt this way until I asked a tax accountant who said that the majority of taxpayers are just not capable of this discipline, planning, or in some cases math.

That's the entire point though. Those people presumably vote on tax policy, and have zero clue what they pay. If the majority of the country were constantly being hounded by government tax collectors for being past-due, there would be very little political support for raising taxes in the future. Right now it's an imaginary percentage the vast majority have no clue of. Ask 10 people in various social circles in your…

This isn't pleasant, but it's true. It wouldn't take many tax cycles of widespread IRS debt for average people to start pushing for lower taxes. It also might make people realize that 44% of Americans pay no income tax (source: https://www.marketwatch.com/story/81-million-americans-wont-...). Even accounting for children, that's a lot of people not contributing. It doesn't have to be a lot, but the average American will care a lot more about politics and about frivolous uses of their money when they've got some skin in the game.

For reference, the average American taxpayer pays over $10k in taxes (https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/personalfinance/2017/10...), which is roughly a 14% rate by the same source. How crazy is that? Americans will be much more willing to push for massive tax cuts after they realize that $10k is being stolen from them every year.

Re: Americans Are Delaying Health Care Until Tax Refunds Arrive

#104

Post by robocat » Sat, Apr 13, 2019, 9:56 PM UTC

geodel wrote: post #73

Canadians with their great health care system seem to think that they need ~250K salary/year to feel comfortable [1] So most people are either too desperate or aspiration too high that no government in the first world can make them happy. 1. https://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2018/11/03/average-salary-cana...

And Canadians think they need $750k for retirement - are they expecting to retire for three years and then die?!

https://business.financialpost.com/personal-finance/the-magi...

Re: Americans Are Delaying Health Care Until Tax Refunds Arrive

#105

Post by jfk13 » Sat, Apr 13, 2019, 9:57 PM UTC

justin66 wrote: post #56

jfk13 wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If both the state and federal governments each had a 55% tax rate, you'd be justified in questioning the rates and voting for a different government! Just as I expect people would complain if there was just a single tax authority, but it set a rate of 110%. Assume for now that we accept the federal government is entitled to raise money for its programs by taxing people's incomes (yes, some people might disagree, but…

> Why should a state be allowed to reduce the federal government's take Because a state can often do a more effective job of using the money than the federal government. > and therefore shift the burden of paying for federal services to other states If you look at the states with high enough income taxes for this to all be relevant, they tend to be "donor" states that pay a lot more to the federal government than the…

> Because a state can often do a more effective job of using the money than the federal government.

That's just a general argument for preferring local taxation and services over federal ones. I don't think it follows that states should be able to undermine federal taxation by increasing their own taxes. If you believe the federal government should be smaller, and state/local governments bigger, then make that case directly and argue for an overall reduction in federal taxation.

Re: Americans Are Delaying Health Care Until Tax Refunds Arrive

#106

Post by EliRivers » Sat, Apr 13, 2019, 9:58 PM UTC

anbop wrote: post #85

shams93 wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah there was a great breakdown of this when the representative from Irvine, California grilled CEO Jaimie Dimon, a bank teller who lives in Irvine makes $15 an hour, basically such a person if they have their own apartment will be forced to choose between having food and having a phone. We have kept salaries frozen for so many decades that we have impoverished the majority of working people to a ridiculous level. A…

Why would you expect that a bank teller has their own apartment? Your own apartment isn’t some kind of birthright. I had roommates until I was 27.

We don't expect it. We expect all but the rich to be continually milked and bled more and more, their productivity harvested and their income withered, and with it their lives - healthcare, living quarters, food, family, leisure, whatever can be given up to give the rich more - until it can be reduced no more.

That's what we expect; we only aspire to better things.

Re: Americans Are Delaying Health Care Until Tax Refunds Arrive

#107

Post by mises » Sat, Apr 13, 2019, 9:59 PM UTC

wutbrodo wrote: post #40

mises wrote: post #14

Withholding is an awful idea designed to favor the government over the taxpayer and to psychologically soften the blow of the ridiculous tax rates we pay. It's especially bad with mandatory withholding by the employer. It shouldn't happen. Taxpayers ought to figure out how much they owe and write the check for it at once. This is especially true since consumers can't invest that income or get interest on it: I could…

> Withholding is an awful idea designed to favor the government over the taxpayer I don't understand this claim. Why wouldn't be the baseline be to pay tax on taxable events as they happen (ie per paycheck)? This seems completely reasonable to me. I don't even see how it softens the psychological blow: again, the baseline of "every time I get paid, I lose X amount of taxes" seems like a pretty reasonable visceral sig…

Quote from the Treasury: "it... greatly reduced the taxpayer's awareness of the amount of tax being collected, i.e. it reduced the transparency of the tax, which made it easier to raise taxes in the future." (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax_withholding_in_the_United_...)

Same reason payment plans are offered for cars and iphones. Technically, many people are payed by the hour; should they have to immediately pay tax? Yearly taxes were the norm for a long time, and helped keep resentment of taxes high. It also led to a drastically reduced paperwork burden, which was cheaper for the government, businesses, and consumers.

Re: Americans Are Delaying Health Care Until Tax Refunds Arrive

#108

Post by JumpCrisscross » Sat, Apr 13, 2019, 10:05 PM UTC

bryan11 wrote: post #102

As employers switch to High Deductible Health Plans where insurance doesn't kick in until one has spent a deductible of several thousand dollars, many people are delaying health care in general. A doctor's visit that once cost a co-pay of $30 is now frequently a cash price from $130 to $400, plus more for lab work. With higher costs and much of them unknown in advance, many skip getting things checked until it seems…

> High Deductible Health Plans where insurance doesn't kick in until one has spent a deductible of several thousand dollars

HDHPs are a great deal for anyone who can set aside the deductible’s value in cash. They are a bad default. But a good thing to consider if you can set aside some cash.

(The problem with HSA-compatible plans is they have a maximum deductible. They’re thus almost as expensive as non-HDHP plans.)

Re: Americans Are Delaying Health Care Until Tax Refunds Arrive

#109

Post by peteradio » Sat, Apr 13, 2019, 10:06 PM UTC

bryan11 wrote: post #102

As employers switch to High Deductible Health Plans where insurance doesn't kick in until one has spent a deductible of several thousand dollars, many people are delaying health care in general. A doctor's visit that once cost a co-pay of $30 is now frequently a cash price from $130 to $400, plus more for lab work. With higher costs and much of them unknown in advance, many skip getting things checked until it seems…

I paid 400 dollars to have a doctor tell me to neti pot my nose after having sinus infection for 3 months. Might not be rational but fuck everything about this system. Who is pocketing all this goddamn money?

Re: Americans Are Delaying Health Care Until Tax Refunds Arrive

#110

Post by apta » Sat, Apr 13, 2019, 10:07 PM UTC

Spooky23 wrote: post #92

ianai wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Phht, bad money management. When loan sharks are peddling 450% payday loans people are being taken advantage of by corporations. The government needs to practice better money management, not us private citizens. Close tax loopholes.

Usurious loans are unethical and disgusting. If people aren’t capable of effective money management, that just reinforces that the justifications used by that agency are bunk.

Practically all owns today are usurious, since interest is involved. If you look at the old testament and the Quran, this was prohibited for a reason, and we see the effects today very clearly.