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Emissions fall in Madrid city center thanks to new traffic restrictions

elpais.com

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Re: Emissions fall in Madrid city center thanks to new traffic restrictions

#51

Post by tim333 »

kingosticks wrote: post #47
tomelders wrote: post #39

I don't own a car because I'm fortunate enough to live in London with an awesome public transport system and a half decent cycle network. But the air quality here sucks and pollution from cars is through the fucking roof. We just introduced an Ultra Low Emission area scheme that's a half hearted attempt to do what they've done in Madrid, but for me that doesn't go far enough. I think we should just ban any vehicles t…

And just look at the black cabs. Currently excempt from the ULEZ with their old diesel engines running all day because..? Oh, money.

Money and politics. It's kind of ironic that the government controlled black cabs "are responsible for about 60 per cent of greater London’s NOx emissions from passenger cars" while the mostly unregulated Ubers are mostly relatively clean Priuses. I gather they are gradually trying to switch the black cabs to electric. https://www.independent.co.uk/environment/black-cabs-taxis-a...

Re: Emissions fall in Madrid city center thanks to new traffic restrictions

#52

Post by wongarsu »

kzcqt wrote: post #16
dingallero wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In several places where I lived the public transport road service was subcontracted to the lowest-bidding private company of the region. This in turn creates this shitty illusion of "public" service that nobody wants to use, because: - it's unreliable (delays and strikes are common) - short working hours - poorly planned (or no) interconnections with other public services - abusive service costs to recoup the costs E…

>In several places where I lived the public transport road service was subcontracted to the lowest-bidding private company of the region. They are required to do so by law.

I think the actual (EU) law is closer to "best suited". You have a number of offers to select from and have to say why you chose that offer. Saying "I chose them because they were the cheapest" is the easiest and safest solution so that's what usually happens, but it's not the only option.

Re: Emissions fall in Madrid city center thanks to new traffic restrictions

#53

Post by tim333 »

chewz wrote: post #26
kzcqt wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This baffles me. The government is there to serve the people. People are unhappy about what the current mayor is doing, that's why she's getting kicked out. Advocating for the EU to step in and force people to stay unhappy will only increase the anti-EU sentiment, but I guess the cat is out of the bag on that one.

You can't have democracy and consumer capitalism and at the same time save the planet from climate catastrophe. It simply won't work. This is what Naomi Klein is trying to tell us.[1] At more practical level getting financing for better public transport needs providing forecast of revenues. And it does not justify investments in public transport as long as people use cars, ubers, taxis etc. And people will continue c…

I think that's over pessimistic - we have lots of environmental laws and mostly fixed the ozone hole and lead pollution. CO2 emissions are tricky as so much of the economy used fossil fuel and the top four emitters being China, India and Russia as well as the US you can't stop it without getting those on board. It's not impossible though.

Re: Emissions fall in Madrid city center thanks to new traffic restrictions

#54

Post by esotericn »

tomelders wrote: post #39

I don't own a car because I'm fortunate enough to live in London with an awesome public transport system and a half decent cycle network. But the air quality here sucks and pollution from cars is through the fucking roof. We just introduced an Ultra Low Emission area scheme that's a half hearted attempt to do what they've done in Madrid, but for me that doesn't go far enough. I think we should just ban any vehicles t…

Agree. The ULEZ is an utter joke.

My car is over fifteen years old. It's ULEZ compliant. I can drive it in to Central London for free after 6pm and at weekends, because it's not diesel.

I don't do it often. I'd be supportive of a serious penalty (50+ quid say).

When it's extended to the North and South Circular roads in a few years time; the car will at that point be almost 20 years old, and if it's still going, permitted for free.

Oh - but I don't live there! I live further out, so actually none of this would affect me in any case, despite local roads still breaching pollution limits.

I wouldn't go quite as far as a blanket ban; I think charges are reasonable (basically to make petrol cars cost about as much as leasing an EV, say, but not forcing up-front massive expenditure). But at the moment we seem to be in this bizarre land in which the only changes that happen are those which don't feasibly affect anyone.

Suggesting that someone who can't afford to buy a new car probably shouldn't be driving around London is seen as political suicide.

Re: Emissions fall in Madrid city center thanks to new traffic restrictions

#55

Post by ip26 »

kzcqt wrote: post #4
Al-Khwarizmi wrote: post #2

And the current mayor will probably lose office next month to parties that have promised to remove said restrictions, because in Spain hardly anyone cares about breathing poison. Sadly, being able to take and park cars everywhere seems to be a much higher priority for much of the population (I say this as a Spaniard). My hope is that the EU somehow intervenes and stops them from taking steps back in this respect. As…

This baffles me. The government is there to serve the people. People are unhappy about what the current mayor is doing, that's why she's getting kicked out. Advocating for the EU to step in and force people to stay unhappy will only increase the anti-EU sentiment, but I guess the cat is out of the bag on that one.

Recalls & reversals generally seem to very selectively incite the fringe. The center figures the matter is settled, and the very edges come in and undo it. So I personally tend to see recalls & reversals especially (except in cases of e.g. corruption, criminality, incompetence) as the will of the fringe, not the will of the masses.

Colorado is kind of an example for me. In 2013 the right mobilized over just-enacted gun control laws and recalled a number of Democrats, turning the majority to the right. But then in the general elections of 2018, everything went back to the Democrats again.

Re: Emissions fall in Madrid city center thanks to new traffic restrictions

#56

Post by adrianN »

kzcqt wrote: post #4
Al-Khwarizmi wrote: post #2

And the current mayor will probably lose office next month to parties that have promised to remove said restrictions, because in Spain hardly anyone cares about breathing poison. Sadly, being able to take and park cars everywhere seems to be a much higher priority for much of the population (I say this as a Spaniard). My hope is that the EU somehow intervenes and stops them from taking steps back in this respect. As…

This baffles me. The government is there to serve the people. People are unhappy about what the current mayor is doing, that's why she's getting kicked out. Advocating for the EU to step in and force people to stay unhappy will only increase the anti-EU sentiment, but I guess the cat is out of the bag on that one.

When we introduced speed limits, people were protesting. When we introduced catalytic converters, people were protesting. When we banned smoking in busses, people were protesting. When we banned smoking in restaurants, people were protesting.

Quite often, the people don't know what's good for them. That's we generally don't have direct democracies.

Re: Emissions fall in Madrid city center thanks to new traffic restrictions

#57

Post by hevi_jos »

Carmena is communist, an "elpais" is a leftist newspaper. They are partial and you can not trust them on this. Specially now that we are under elections.

An 8% difference with last year is nothing in Madrid. Madrid has big differences in pollution depending on what it rains, and specially on the wind. Pollution is bad there when there are anticyclonic weather and thermal inversion.

Madrid has very clear skies, it is like Denver,Colorado. The near mountains filter the low clouds. So at night most heat is radiated, making inversion frequent.

Carmena has created chaos in Madrid, an enormous congestion, just ask any taxi driver. I talked with people in the Politecnic University in Madrid in Winter and some levels of pollution were higher this year than last one(last year rained a lot so it was very clean).

I'd bet those numbers have been cooked to make Carmena look good. Most of the traffic goes now around the perimeter created and those places are way worse than last year.

In Spain most of the Media is controlled by the left and now also the leftist Government, that directly controls public Media(In Spain public Media depends on taxes, not like the BBC or Media in Europe).

Carmena is not a great technical person. She acts on feeling and ideology. Facts care very little to her.

Re: Emissions fall in Madrid city center thanks to new traffic restrictions

#58

Post by Brakenshire »

esotericn wrote: post #54
tomelders wrote: post #39

I don't own a car because I'm fortunate enough to live in London with an awesome public transport system and a half decent cycle network. But the air quality here sucks and pollution from cars is through the fucking roof. We just introduced an Ultra Low Emission area scheme that's a half hearted attempt to do what they've done in Madrid, but for me that doesn't go far enough. I think we should just ban any vehicles t…

Agree. The ULEZ is an utter joke. My car is over fifteen years old. It's ULEZ compliant. I can drive it in to Central London for free after 6pm and at weekends, because it's not diesel. I don't do it often. I'd be supportive of a serious penalty (50+ quid say). When it's extended to the North and South Circular roads in a few years time; the car will at that point be almost 20 years old, and if it's still going, perm…

That’s because a 15 year old petrol car (Euro 4) is almost always better than even a 3 year old diesel car (Euro 6):

https://mobile.twitter.com/apbandiv/status/10062388729660661...

And 15 year old diesels are terrible. Banning dieselgate-era diesels is overwhelmingly the most important policy. Only RDE (Real Driving Emissions) diesels are ok, and under EU rules RDE has only come in during the last year or two, and even now is quite lax.

Diesels will only be fully required to fully meet the pollution standards under real world driving conditions within a year or two, and only then will be roughly equivalent to petrols built from 2004 onwards.

Re: Emissions fall in Madrid city center thanks to new traffic restrictions

#59

Post by ponow »

nextos wrote: post #43
tomelders wrote: post #39

I don't own a car because I'm fortunate enough to live in London with an awesome public transport system and a half decent cycle network. But the air quality here sucks and pollution from cars is through the fucking roof. We just introduced an Ultra Low Emission area scheme that's a half hearted attempt to do what they've done in Madrid, but for me that doesn't go far enough. I think we should just ban any vehicles t…

I agree. I would go further by forcing all new cars to be plug-in hybrids as soon as it is practically doable. Maybe someone with ICE and battery expertise can chip in and clarify whether there are any pitfalls in this approach. I simply don't understand why this is not enforced very soon. Many companies are producing inexpensive hybrids, so it sounds quite doable. And most people, at least in Europe, make really sho…

I see inefficient-yet-hybrid SUVs in Pittsburgh, yet more-efficient-yet-gasoline-only subcompacts would be banned. I frequently see people who won't alter their own wasteful practices (always buying new things, instead of re-using or repairing old ones, for example), yet virtue signal by buying green, driving hybrid, etc. If you really want root out the causes, we need to measure all the contributors, including people's life choices (living in suburbia, eating meat, etc.). Pretty soon it becomes clear how draconian that would be. Cost is a pretty good proxy for all of that, yet leaves people free.

Re: Emissions fall in Madrid city center thanks to new traffic restrictions

#60

Post by anticensor »

wongarsu wrote: post #52
kzcqt wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>In several places where I lived the public transport road service was subcontracted to the lowest-bidding private company of the region. They are required to do so by law.

I think the actual (EU) law is closer to "best suited". You have a number of offers to select from and have to say why you chose that offer. Saying "I chose them because they were the cheapest" is the easiest and safest solution so that's what usually happens, but it's not the only option.

You have to pre-declare how you choose the best offer. Final procurement order is oftentimes made into existence after many rounds of rejection by procurement overseeing committee.
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