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Pengwin – A Linux Distro Optimized for WSL Based on Debian

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Re: Pengwin – A Linux Distro Optimized for WSL Based on Debian

#81
post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I assume you are limiting your definition of "system-taxing" to playing games specifically? As other people have noted, filesystem performance is often better under Linux. I also will point out that at least some rendering tasks can be faster under Linux as well: http://blog.thepixelary.com/post/167616662857/improving-perf... Just like with the filesystem performance discrepancy, this article seems to point out WDDM…

Using git as a filesystem performance metric is horribly flawed -- git was written from the beginning to perform perfectly on Linux. It's the most native linux application I can think of. (Not because it's using secret system calls, but because its design was vetted and performance tailored for Linux.)

I thought it was mainly because windows doesn't have a dir cache in the kernel. The WSL filesystem performance thread is linked above which goes into this.

And that can't be fixed without involving 10 different teams and potentially outside partners.

And there's something wrong with the filesystem, which can't be fixed without the same deal except that will definitely require the cooperation of the outside partners because apparently you can write an extension for NTFS and fixing it would break the existing extensions, which Microsoft doesn't have the source for and doesn't ship.

And there's a thousand other paper cuts, and a very large fraction of those would require cross-team coordination and testing, which is a horrible time sink in a large company.

Fundamentally, Windows has poor performance when dealing with lots of little files, which is exactly what compiling large code bases involves. And to top it all off, their build system, conspires against their own OS. You'll get better performance using cmake + ninja (on Windows that is) then you will with cmake + visual studio.

Edit: also as a practical matter, if all my company's code is in git, and all outside code bases I work with are in git, I kinda would like decent git performance regardless of the origins of the tool.

I use windows as an outlook appliance at work, and as a gaming appliance at home. Otherwise I do everything in linux and am much happier.

Re: Pengwin – A Linux Distro Optimized for WSL Based on Debian

#82
post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's entirely possible to disable this by adding an exception for the WSL directory in Windows Defender. In my experience, this vastly improves IO from within linux.

Good luck convincing your employer to do this. One feature request from me in case someone from MSFT is reading - please design things so that no file modify hooks are invoked at all for files under wsl directory. Files in wsl should be in a secure sandbox by default outside the reach of any antivirus. I have heard that system devs at Microsoft have Admin mode enabled. I think that is why they dont realise how bad th…

I am reliably informed that the top developers ay MS Research are in WSL 80% of the time.

Re: Pengwin – A Linux Distro Optimized for WSL Based on Debian

#83
post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The filesystem is notably slower on Windows. It's easy to test it out for yourself; clone any big repo (eg: linux) in WSL and run `git status`. The Microsoft engineers have already done a lot of heroic efforts with WSL. The issue seems to be more inherent to the design and really hard to solve. ref: https://github.com/Microsoft/WSL/issues/873 To be clear, this is for a specific use-case. I don't believe that all appl…

Windows supports multiple file systems; Microsoft could solve this by adding ext4 support directly into Windows and running WSL from a separate partition.

No, because you still suffer from Windows buffer management, Windows I/O scheduling, and Windows kernel-thread scheduling.

It has been tried.

Re: Pengwin – A Linux Distro Optimized for WSL Based on Debian

#84
post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Using git as a filesystem performance metric is horribly flawed -- git was written from the beginning to perform perfectly on Linux. It's the most native linux application I can think of. (Not because it's using secret system calls, but because its design was vetted and performance tailored for Linux.)

I thought it was mainly because windows doesn't have a dir cache in the kernel. The WSL filesystem performance thread is linked above which goes into this. And that can't be fixed without involving 10 different teams and potentially outside partners. And there's something wrong with the filesystem, which can't be fixed without the same deal except that will definitely require the cooperation of the outside partners b…

It is also extremely slow on big files. Try opening a file, seeking out to 10GB, and writing 4KB. Instant, on any Unix. Better have something else planned for the afternoon, on Windows.

Re: Pengwin – A Linux Distro Optimized for WSL Based on Debian

#85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's nothing to fix. The devices are either open and a dev has decided to write his own, or the devices are closed and the drivers are provided by their respective creators. If it's the former, pay a dev, if it's the latter, use a different device.

Or! Hear me out here: I use Windows. Lock-in sucks, but it's real.

Yes, but you can run it in a VM. Microsoft could make it run in a container, instead, if they cared about your time. They might do it to make their Azure servers faster, but have little incentive to tell you.

Re: Pengwin – A Linux Distro Optimized for WSL Based on Debian

#86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

File IO can be vastly improved by excluding the WSL OS directory from Windows Defender real-time protection. Here's a gist that has powershell and GUI instructions for accomplishing this: https://gist.github.com/noelbundick/9c804a710eb76e1d6a234b14...

This is possible but not recommended unless you are very cautious. Windows Defender protects from Windows malware entering via WSL and Linux malware as well. For example Windows Defender has caught comprimised npm modules inside WSL.

There aren’t that many malware that are worse than antivirus.

What I don’t understand is why antivirus has to second guess the user.

Re: Pengwin – A Linux Distro Optimized for WSL Based on Debian

#87
post #11
post #4

This is fundamentally the wrong direction to go. The clue is that MSWin running in a VM on Linux is faster than on hardware. The way forward is to boot Linux, or even something else, to manage hardware, memory, and filesystems, and cut down MSWin to run in a container on it. That way MSWin relies on the underlying OS to do things MSWin has proven to be just not very good at. MSWin runs programs written for it, reliab…

> That way MSWin relies on the underlying OS to do things MSWin has proven to be just not very good at Could you expand on what some of these things are?

File operations. Corralling vendors to code reliable, non-crashy drivers. Input device event handling. Thread scheduling. I/O scheduling. Anything where tuning would have involved work by more than one product group.

Re: Pengwin – A Linux Distro Optimized for WSL Based on Debian

#88
post #82
post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good luck convincing your employer to do this. One feature request from me in case someone from MSFT is reading - please design things so that no file modify hooks are invoked at all for files under wsl directory. Files in wsl should be in a secure sandbox by default outside the reach of any antivirus. I have heard that system devs at Microsoft have Admin mode enabled. I think that is why they dont realise how bad th…

I am reliably informed that the top developers ay MS Research are in WSL 80% of the time.

Satya,if you are reading this - Do an experiment by taking away everyones admin privileges for two weeks. See how many people can still do their jobs. Fix every single developer use case you find that needs admin.

Re: Pengwin – A Linux Distro Optimized for WSL Based on Debian

#90

Is this actually a Linux distro, though? I've long held that "WSL" is a misnomer; it happens to be compatible with binaries compiled for Linux, but given that no Linux code is actually present, this would really be Debian GNU/NT.

What? WSL emulates linux syscalls and vfs, how is this a misnomer?
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