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Pengwin – A Linux Distro Optimized for WSL Based on Debian

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Re: Pengwin – A Linux Distro Optimized for WSL Based on Debian

#41

Post by JohnFen »

ncmncm wrote: post #4

This is fundamentally the wrong direction to go. The clue is that MSWin running in a VM on Linux is faster than on hardware. The way forward is to boot Linux, or even something else, to manage hardware, memory, and filesystems, and cut down MSWin to run in a container on it. That way MSWin relies on the underlying OS to do things MSWin has proven to be just not very good at. MSWin runs programs written for it, reliab…

I don't know if it's the wrong direction or not. I suppose it depends on what your goals are.

All I can say is that I don't see the need for any of it.

Re: Pengwin – A Linux Distro Optimized for WSL Based on Debian

#42

Post by basementcat »

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #37
skaomatic wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's nothing to fix. The fire is either of a type that may be extinguished and a trained firefighter decided to put this type of fire out for everyone, or the fire is unable to be extinguished as was the intention of the entity that started it. If it's the former, find the correct firefighter, if it's the latter, use a different fire.

There's nothing to fix. The construction material is either of a type that does not spontaneously combust, and a carpenter can make you a fine chair out of it, or the material is the type to spontaneously combust, and if you choose to buy a chair made of that material you will soon find your pants are on fire. If it's the former, pay a contractor to build you a chair, or make one yourself. If it's the latter, use a d…

There is nothing to cure. The pathogen is either of a type that is curable, and a licensed medical professional can prepare a treatment regimen, or the pathogen will liquefy all of your internal organs within minutes, and if you choose to expose yourself to the latter pathogen, you will find yourself having a bad day very quickly.

If it's the former, pay a licensed medical professional or read online forums and do it yourself. If it's the latter, contact your nearest funeral home.

Re: Pengwin – A Linux Distro Optimized for WSL Based on Debian

#43

Post by mises »

glitchc wrote: post #10
ncmncm wrote: post #4

This is fundamentally the wrong direction to go. The clue is that MSWin running in a VM on Linux is faster than on hardware. The way forward is to boot Linux, or even something else, to manage hardware, memory, and filesystems, and cut down MSWin to run in a container on it. That way MSWin relies on the underlying OS to do things MSWin has proven to be just not very good at. MSWin runs programs written for it, reliab…

I don’t believe your assertion. A quick check on the latest system-taxing application (aka a game), confirms the exact opposite. Even a cross-platform game, compiled natively for both OSes, runs faster on Windows in most cases. How do you square these observations with your assertion.

Which game? I don't agree with the position of the person to whom you are responding, but there's almost certainly much more optimization put into the Windows version.

Re: Pengwin – A Linux Distro Optimized for WSL Based on Debian

#44

Post by acqq »

ghostly_s wrote: post #40
acqq wrote: post #24

Interesting: “Grants/Bounties If you have an idea for a new feature you would like to see implemented in Pengwin and can implement it yourself given the funding, we are now accepting grant/bounty proposals. Grants are currently available for $50-$500 USD based on complexity.” The upper limit is quite demotivating, from my point of view.

Demotivating to whom? I imagine the intent is to avoid creating an impression that anyone has the power to make their pet issue priority #1 for the dev team just by throwing enough money at it.

But it's not for a "dev team" at all, the way I understood it, it's:

"Learn how you can earn paid grants improving Pengwin."

"Your proposal will be promptly evaluated" ... "Your work sample and GitHub history will be evaluated to determine if you have the technical competancy to implement the proposed change and deliver timely." "If approved, you will recieve a simple agreement covering the scope of the work you will be doing which you must acknowledge and return and then you may commence work."

Re: Pengwin – A Linux Distro Optimized for WSL Based on Debian

#45

Post by wtallis »

asveikau wrote: post #34
bashinator wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's entirely possible to disable this by adding an exception for the WSL directory in Windows Defender. In my experience, this vastly improves IO from within linux.

I wasn't talking about WSL at all actually. I have never used it. Disk performance is just worse on Windows. With or without defender. (And defender is the default.)

Based on limited testing, I think IO is slower on Windows even when there's no filesystem involved at all. The block layer is just slower, despite having so few features that it's hardly worthy of being called a layer compared to what's possible on Linux.

Re: Pengwin – A Linux Distro Optimized for WSL Based on Debian

#46

Post by morning_gelato »

glitchc wrote: post #10
ncmncm wrote: post #4

This is fundamentally the wrong direction to go. The clue is that MSWin running in a VM on Linux is faster than on hardware. The way forward is to boot Linux, or even something else, to manage hardware, memory, and filesystems, and cut down MSWin to run in a container on it. That way MSWin relies on the underlying OS to do things MSWin has proven to be just not very good at. MSWin runs programs written for it, reliab…

I don’t believe your assertion. A quick check on the latest system-taxing application (aka a game), confirms the exact opposite. Even a cross-platform game, compiled natively for both OSes, runs faster on Windows in most cases. How do you square these observations with your assertion.

Games really aren't a good benchmark for overall system performance as they are generally optimized for Windows and non-Windows ports often receive a lot less attention. Also, most games are primarily stressing one thing - the graphics stack - and not I/O, scheduling, memory management etc.

Re: Pengwin – A Linux Distro Optimized for WSL Based on Debian

#47

Post by gshulegaard »

glitchc wrote: post #10
ncmncm wrote: post #4

This is fundamentally the wrong direction to go. The clue is that MSWin running in a VM on Linux is faster than on hardware. The way forward is to boot Linux, or even something else, to manage hardware, memory, and filesystems, and cut down MSWin to run in a container on it. That way MSWin relies on the underlying OS to do things MSWin has proven to be just not very good at. MSWin runs programs written for it, reliab…

I don’t believe your assertion. A quick check on the latest system-taxing application (aka a game), confirms the exact opposite. Even a cross-platform game, compiled natively for both OSes, runs faster on Windows in most cases. How do you square these observations with your assertion.

I assume you are limiting your definition of "system-taxing" to playing games specifically?

As other people have noted, filesystem performance is often better under Linux.

I also will point out that at least some rendering tasks can be faster under Linux as well:

http://blog.thepixelary.com/post/167616662857/improving-perf...

Just like with the filesystem performance discrepancy, this article seems to point out WDDM (Windows drivers) as the reason for this rendering discrepancy.

And while we are on gaming (since I am a gamer as well!) when comparing games that run natively on Linux as well as Windows, Linux often has a performance edge over Windows:

https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=Win10-Li...

Of course most games do not support Linux natively so in order to game on Linux you have to use WINE, Proton, or full virtualization to get a non-native game to run and this extra middleware layer adds overhead. But this doesn't mean gaming performance on Linux is worse than Windows; as comparing native-to-native performance shows.

Re: Pengwin – A Linux Distro Optimized for WSL Based on Debian

#48

Post by glitchc »

mises wrote: post #43
glitchc wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t believe your assertion. A quick check on the latest system-taxing application (aka a game), confirms the exact opposite. Even a cross-platform game, compiled natively for both OSes, runs faster on Windows in most cases. How do you square these observations with your assertion.

Which game? I don't agree with the position of the person to whom you are responding, but there's almost certainly much more optimization put into the Windows version.

Why is “much more optimization” a limitation? What is preventing devs from optimizing the linux version? If the OS is more performant that should require less effort, no?

Re: Pengwin – A Linux Distro Optimized for WSL Based on Debian

#49

Post by morning_gelato »

maccio92 wrote: post #5
ncmncm wrote: post #4

This is fundamentally the wrong direction to go. The clue is that MSWin running in a VM on Linux is faster than on hardware. The way forward is to boot Linux, or even something else, to manage hardware, memory, and filesystems, and cut down MSWin to run in a container on it. That way MSWin relies on the underlying OS to do things MSWin has proven to be just not very good at. MSWin runs programs written for it, reliab…

I always have difficulties with drivers on linux. Never on Windows. Until they fix that I cannot use anything other than windows as my base system. I don't care if linux handles things slightly better

Difficulties with drivers in terms of quality, availability or both? Regarding availability (and often quality) the only real/sustainable solution is for hardware manufacturers (who I think you are referring to by "they") to improve their Linux support.

Re: Pengwin – A Linux Distro Optimized for WSL Based on Debian

#50

Post by dman »

bashinator wrote: post #33
asveikau wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's definitely true in my experience that disk operations are slower in Windows. Folks on this thread are getting flack for poor comparisons (IMO Windows is worse at lots of small files), but even when you remove that, and say, look at mostly portable code that deals with a single file, as I have seen using sqlite as an example, it does worse. Not to mention Windows has built in antivirus reacting to all your filesy…

It's entirely possible to disable this by adding an exception for the WSL directory in Windows Defender. In my experience, this vastly improves IO from within linux.

Good luck convincing your employer to do this. One feature request from me in case someone from MSFT is reading - please design things so that no file modify hooks are invoked at all for files under wsl directory. Files in wsl should be in a secure sandbox by default outside the reach of any antivirus.

I have heard that system devs at Microsoft have Admin mode enabled. I think that is why they dont realise how bad the dev experience is on windows when you dont have admin. You cant turn windows indexing off, you cant exclude things from anti virus, you cant launch Application Verifier. All dev workflows should work without Admin.

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