Tech workers are organizing and demanding democracy in the workplace • Hacker News Board

Re: Tech workers are organizing and demanding democracy in the workplace

#81

Post by peteradio » Fri, Apr 12, 2019, 3:50 PM UTC

ThrowawayR2 wrote: post #63

maxxxxx wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Employees share responsibility for the success of a company so they should also have stake in the company. This whole idea that a company exists exclusively for the owners doesn’t make sense to me. There is a bigger picture to make a society work for all citizens. Warning about “ socialism “ also doesn’t make sense. We don’t have to choose between the way the US is at the moment and the Soviet Union or Venezuela. The…

> Employees share responsibility for the success of a company so they should also have stake in the company. At a restaurant, a chef is not allowed to have a bite of your meal because s/he is the one who prepared it. That meal is owned by you in its entirety because that is what you paid for. If a group of employees want a say in the how a business is run, they are free to purchase ownership, whether directly or thro…

Chef gets to set the menu.

Re: Tech workers are organizing and demanding democracy in the workplace

#82

Post by scarmig » Fri, Apr 12, 2019, 3:51 PM UTC

mises wrote: post #78

scarmig wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A country with a right of exit can still be quite authoritarian, just as an organization that you can leave can be as well. What's authoritarian is the structure: owners and especially managers nowadays controlling priorities and work rules, as opposed to the people actually doing the labor in companies. I'd generally opt for all those parties collaborating in decision making. > don't try to use the club of governmen…

> owners and especially managers nowadays controlling priorities and work rules So? I do think some people have bad practices. Non-competes, for instance, are often abused. But you can still leave... > existing corporate management structures... rely on state violence to maintain themselves... If a bunch of workers enacted control over their workplace Yes, if there was a workers uprising, I would darn well hope the p…

> We live in a nation founded on the basis of property rights.

Assuming you live in the United States, do you mean the right to enslave people and take their labor? Or the right to kill people and take their land?

Re: Tech workers are organizing and demanding democracy in the workplace

#83

Post by orblivion » Fri, Apr 12, 2019, 3:51 PM UTC

scarmig wrote: post #75

orblivion wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I lean more on the capitalist side, but this is a more interesting question than a basic view of capitalism would lead one to believe. The ethics of capitalism are based on the assumption that the business owner rightfully has final say on all of the property of the business, and that the workers are merely guests on the property, paid to do something with the property, collect a paycheck, and go home. They have no r…

Relatedly, imagine the Soviet Union still existed and continued to own all productive property within it. Would the people who give absolute value to the right of property holders to do what they choose with it support the Soviet Union's right to organize its economy however it so choose, along with controlling the media it owns and the workforce it contracts with? After all, it owns the property, and anyone with cre…

I heard that instead they gave ownership of the factories to the workers :-P (who then sold it off to the oligarchs)

I think the question here is legitimate ownership of property. If you think the Soviet Union stole the property (I do), then it should be assumed that it's homesteaded to those using it. Even Murray Rothbard suggested giving ownership of U.S. universities to students and professors, if I recall correctly. (I think it was in "All Power to the Soviets")

I suppose you believe the capitalists stole the property, which allows for the same appropriation by the workers.

But here's the thing: what then? Could the workers sell their shares? If they can, another capitalist class can emerge just as well, purely by preference of people wanting an earlier payout selling the shares + steady paychecks vs risking being responsible for the enterprise. And if the workers can't make such a choice, in what sense do they really own the share? (EDIT: I think Proudhon actually had a counter argument to this, I forgot what it was)

Re: Tech workers are organizing and demanding democracy in the workplace

#84

Post by dgzl » Fri, Apr 12, 2019, 3:51 PM UTC

mises wrote: post #71

dgzl wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> what right have you to the fruits of my labor? Edit: Nobody. If you allow someone to have rights to another person's product or service (I'm thinking healthcare), then you're saying you have a right to the people who produce the product or service, which is slavery. The government can't guarantee your "right" if there's no people to produce it, unless the government forces it (slavery), or just throws random worker…

> If you allow someone to have rights to another person's product or service Who said this should ever be the case? You're assuming I support a right to healthcare. I don't support that, nor do I support most positive rights. Especially if they're not constitutional and are federally implemented. The obvious solution to all the problems you mentioned is that nobody has a right to anyone else's product or service, whi…

I was agreeing with you, maybe I didn't make that clear.

Re: Tech workers are organizing and demanding democracy in the workplace

#85

Post by mises » Fri, Apr 12, 2019, 3:53 PM UTC

orblivion wrote: post #65

scarmig wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> what right have you to the fruits of my labor? Socialists ask the same thing of capitalists. There's no reason to elevate one particular (and historically rare) version of property rights over all others. And there's no particular reason economic organizations should or must be authoritarian dictatorships ruled by "shareholders" instead of workplace democracies.

I lean more on the capitalist side, but this is a more interesting question than a basic view of capitalism would lead one to believe. The ethics of capitalism are based on the assumption that the business owner rightfully has final say on all of the property of the business, and that the workers are merely guests on the property, paid to do something with the property, collect a paycheck, and go home. They have no r…

There was a thread yesterday about a jury selection glitch that made young people less likely to be selected, and someone suggested making them 10x more likely as recompense. I said that wasn't fair to the new jurors or the new defendants (who would still get a biased jury). I believe it's the same here. I know several people who were raised dirt-poor, and even one who was a high-school drop-out, who started successful companies. Getting ahead is hard, but certainly possible.

Re: Tech workers are organizing and demanding democracy in the workplace

#86

Post by GaltMidas » Fri, Apr 12, 2019, 3:53 PM UTC

newen wrote: post #67

GaltMidas wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm 46 years old. I can't think of one example where I was exploited as a tech worker. I'm from a union town, grew up in a union family. I support unions. The UAW was very important to the country and the middle class. I'm just not sure where the need is in tech. I think it might hurt us, if anything. Tech workers are not fungible. We do have quite a bit of leverage. Your average factory floor worker is fungible and…

I have heard too many stories of overworked programmers (lots of stories if you google it), especially in the gaming industry, and let's not forget Amazon's NY Times story a few years back, to think that there is no worker exploitation going on in the industry like you say.

I think your examples are valid. I wonder though if it's a choice for someone to work 80 hours a week at $40k to make video games versus 37 hours a week at $80k doing forms over tables stuff for The Bobs. Is that a choice or exploitation?

Re: Tech workers are organizing and demanding democracy in the workplace

#87

Post by mises » Fri, Apr 12, 2019, 3:54 PM UTC

scarmig wrote: post #75

orblivion wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I lean more on the capitalist side, but this is a more interesting question than a basic view of capitalism would lead one to believe. The ethics of capitalism are based on the assumption that the business owner rightfully has final say on all of the property of the business, and that the workers are merely guests on the property, paid to do something with the property, collect a paycheck, and go home. They have no r…

Relatedly, imagine the Soviet Union still existed and continued to own all productive property within it. Would the people who give absolute value to the right of property holders to do what they choose with it support the Soviet Union's right to organize its economy however it so choose, along with controlling the media it owns and the workforce it contracts with? After all, it owns the property, and anyone with cre…

The Soviet Union stole its original resources, but more importantly continued to steal all resources produced. See Dekulakization: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dekulakization

Re: Tech workers are organizing and demanding democracy in the workplace

#88

Post by cworth » Fri, Apr 12, 2019, 3:54 PM UTC

veryworried wrote: post #25

Unions for tech workers are ridiculous. We’re not coal miners, we are highly skilled white collar professionals that should be more than capable of finding work that suits us without extra regulatory bullshit. I find the people who are clamoring for unions in tech are among the least talented and skilled of employees, and they should probably find a new industry entirely instead of trying to change the one they’re in…

Union organizers are fighting power to improve the material conditions of all tech workers. It sounds like you need some class analysis.

Re: Tech workers are organizing and demanding democracy in the workplace

#89

Post by mises » Fri, Apr 12, 2019, 3:55 PM UTC

jdhopeunique wrote: post #61

orblivion wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

She's referring to the distribution and central planning aspects of socialism, which are secondary consequences of the philosophy. The discussion here is more relevant to the core tenet: worker ownership of the means of production.

If only there was something analogous to the inflationary monetary system except for equity instead. Shareholders equity in companies could be diluted just like workers' wages are diluted by inflation.

Ever heard of dilution? This does happen at times. It was banned over a hundred years ago, if I recall correctly, because people got clever and abused it.

Re: Tech workers are organizing and demanding democracy in the workplace

#90

Post by mises » Fri, Apr 12, 2019, 3:56 PM UTC

jdhopeunique wrote: post #61

orblivion wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

She's referring to the distribution and central planning aspects of socialism, which are secondary consequences of the philosophy. The discussion here is more relevant to the core tenet: worker ownership of the means of production.

If only there was something analogous to the inflationary monetary system except for equity instead. Shareholders equity in companies could be diluted just like workers' wages are diluted by inflation.

Ever heard of dilution? This does happen at times. It was banned for public companies over a hundred years ago, if I recall correctly, because people got clever and abused it.