Tech workers are organizing and demanding democracy in the workplace • Hacker News Board

Re: Tech workers are organizing and demanding democracy in the workplace

#21

Post by helen___keller » Fri, Apr 12, 2019, 3:18 PM UTC

Zak wrote: post #11

I've noticed this trend here on HN beyond workers organizing for their own benefit. The idea of regulating the internet, for almost any reason was abhorrent to the tech community a decade ago. Now, most people seem to think the likes of Uber and AirBnB need to be regulated. A majority of comments here about GDPR seem to support it, and I regularly see calls for more regulation of the sort. I'm not sure if the same gr…

I think there was a sort of techno-utopianism in the aughts that the hip new startups will solve all the world's problems. People will be educated and not fall for disinformation with wikipedia and google at their fingertips. People will discover the wonders of democracy and free speech with facebook and rise against oppressive governments. These were obviously overly optimistic projections.

Also, the rise of outrage porn makes it much easier for people to come to the conclusion that "the system" is horribly broken and needs to be changed (for almost any "system" that we speak of, government or capitalism, or youtube, literally anything)

Re: Tech workers are organizing and demanding democracy in the workplace

#22

Post by option » Fri, Apr 12, 2019, 3:18 PM UTC

scarmig wrote: post #17

mises wrote: post #2

This trend bothers me. Employees are not shareholders, or if they are, they ought to do this in their capacity as shareholders. If they want to govern the company, they ought to buy in or move to management. Or, they can always move companies. This is always an option. Also, socialism is an awful idea. I can't believe people actually support it. I have a massive moral objection to its core tenets: what right have you…

> what right have you to the fruits of my labor? Socialists ask the same thing of capitalists. There's no reason to elevate one particular (and historically rare) version of property rights over all others. And there's no particular reason economic organizations should or must be authoritarian dictatorships ruled by "shareholders" instead of workplace democracies.

[flagged]

Re: Tech workers are organizing and demanding democracy in the workplace

#23

Post by mises » Fri, Apr 12, 2019, 3:18 PM UTC

z_ wrote: post #5

mises wrote: post #2

This trend bothers me. Employees are not shareholders, or if they are, they ought to do this in their capacity as shareholders. If they want to govern the company, they ought to buy in or move to management. Or, they can always move companies. This is always an option. Also, socialism is an awful idea. I can't believe people actually support it. I have a massive moral objection to its core tenets: what right have you…

Who is doing the fruit labor in this example?

Sorry, overall my above comment had two sub-points:

First, the point that employees are not always shareholders. They get payed to do a job at a wage accepted by both the company and employee.

Second, the idea of socialism over all. As Marx described it, it's merely a transitional phase: the means of production is taken from capitalists and given to the government to basically hold in custody until it can be passed to the people. Don't believe me that this push is happening? Elizabeth Warren wants workers placed on company boards. The fruits are those produced by someone who works, be it for a company or starting his own. I go out and earn money, and socialism says I must give that money away, not to the government to uphold the social contract. Rather, it says I must give it to anyone who does not have a constantly-changing set of "basic needs", simply by virtue of their existence. It's not encouragement to give to charity (which I already do, as I can), but rather coercion by the government.

Re: Tech workers are organizing and demanding democracy in the workplace

#24

Post by maxxxxx » Fri, Apr 12, 2019, 3:18 PM UTC

tenpies wrote: post #12

maxxxxx wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Employees share responsibility for the success of a company so they should also have stake in the company. This whole idea that a company exists exclusively for the owners doesn’t make sense to me. There is a bigger picture to make a society work for all citizens. Warning about “ socialism “ also doesn’t make sense. We don’t have to choose between the way the US is at the moment and the Soviet Union or Venezuela. The…

> Employees share responsibility for the success of a company so they should also have stake in the company. Exactly, so what is stopping them from using their salary to buy shares? If you believe you are doing such a good job that the company will sustain or do better, it would almost be silly not to. You have domain expertise by virtue of working there. You may even have a solid insider feel for the pulse of the or…

Nothing is stopping them from buying shares. What’s your point?

Re: Tech workers are organizing and demanding democracy in the workplace

#25

Post by veryworried » Fri, Apr 12, 2019, 3:19 PM UTC

Unions for tech workers are ridiculous. We’re not coal miners, we are highly skilled white collar professionals that should be more than capable of finding work that suits us without extra regulatory bullshit.

I find the people who are clamoring for unions in tech are among the least talented and skilled of employees, and they should probably find a new industry entirely instead of trying to change the one they’re in to be more hospitable to the lowest common denominators. Perhaps we can help the process along by putting these people on hiring blacklists and ensuring they never work in this town again.

Re: Tech workers are organizing and demanding democracy in the workplace

#26

Post by kyllo » Fri, Apr 12, 2019, 3:20 PM UTC

mises wrote: post #2

This trend bothers me. Employees are not shareholders, or if they are, they ought to do this in their capacity as shareholders. If they want to govern the company, they ought to buy in or move to management. Or, they can always move companies. This is always an option. Also, socialism is an awful idea. I can't believe people actually support it. I have a massive moral objection to its core tenets: what right have you…

Your employer is able to bargain with you as one massive, collective organization with all its resources to bear. Why should you have to negotiate with them as a one atomic individual person, when you and your coworkers can instead get together and negotiate from a much stronger position?

Re: Tech workers are organizing and demanding democracy in the workplace

#27

Post by mdorazio » Fri, Apr 12, 2019, 3:20 PM UTC

maxxxxx wrote: post #7

mises wrote: post #2

This trend bothers me. Employees are not shareholders, or if they are, they ought to do this in their capacity as shareholders. If they want to govern the company, they ought to buy in or move to management. Or, they can always move companies. This is always an option. Also, socialism is an awful idea. I can't believe people actually support it. I have a massive moral objection to its core tenets: what right have you…

Employees share responsibility for the success of a company so they should also have stake in the company. This whole idea that a company exists exclusively for the owners doesn’t make sense to me. There is a bigger picture to make a society work for all citizens. Warning about “ socialism “ also doesn’t make sense. We don’t have to choose between the way the US is at the moment and the Soviet Union or Venezuela. The…

There are plenty of employee-owned companies to join if that's your opinion. Trying to shoehorn that ownership into companies that often got to where they are by not being employee-owned seems really entitled.

Re: Tech workers are organizing and demanding democracy in the workplace

#28

Post by frgtpsswrdlame » Fri, Apr 12, 2019, 3:20 PM UTC

glvn wrote: post #16

Unpopular opinion: As a recent graduate (last 5 years), I can't agree with most works desire to unionize for one reason: demand for your skills. When I was looking for my second tech job, I turned on that switch in my LinkedIn that lets recruiters contact me. I was immediately inundated with 10-20 messages a day from recruiters asking if I could speak with them about . For me this was the most insane luxury in the wo…

Hirschman wrote a book called Exit, Voice, and Loyalty that you may find interesting. What I see in your response is this: 'Exit and Loyalty are enough, so why have Voice?' In your mind it's good enough to just go to another job that has better conditions, but why is it wrong to want to change your current job? I don't see a good argument in your post against the usage of voice or democracy in the workplace, just your perspective that you don't need it. But maybe others do think they need it, so let's give it to them.

Re: Tech workers are organizing and demanding democracy in the workplace

#29

Post by [deleted] » Fri, Apr 12, 2019, 3:20 PM UTC

shraremywin2 wrote: post #9

mises wrote: post #2

This trend bothers me. Employees are not shareholders, or if they are, they ought to do this in their capacity as shareholders. If they want to govern the company, they ought to buy in or move to management. Or, they can always move companies. This is always an option. Also, socialism is an awful idea. I can't believe people actually support it. I have a massive moral objection to its core tenets: what right have you…

Socialism is when the government owns production. capitalist are allowed to aggregate in the form of corporations why shouldn't workers be allowed to aggregate.

[deleted]

Re: Tech workers are organizing and demanding democracy in the workplace

#30

Post by TomMarius » Fri, Apr 12, 2019, 3:21 PM UTC

shraremywin2 wrote: post #9

mises wrote: post #2

This trend bothers me. Employees are not shareholders, or if they are, they ought to do this in their capacity as shareholders. If they want to govern the company, they ought to buy in or move to management. Or, they can always move companies. This is always an option. Also, socialism is an awful idea. I can't believe people actually support it. I have a massive moral objection to its core tenets: what right have you…

Socialism is when the government owns production. capitalist are allowed to aggregate in the form of corporations why shouldn't workers be allowed to aggregate.

They are able to incorporate just as well.