Live data from Hacker News

Startup Stock Options – Why a Good Deal Has Gone Bad

steveblank.com

381–390 of 391 posts

Re: Startup Stock Options – Why a Good Deal Has Gone Bad

#381

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A company I used to work for is in the process of doing this right now. Makes me feel really stupid spending ~10k exercising the shares.

While you're probably bound by some restricted shareholder agreement, you may get a lot of mileage by just asking a lawyer to ask some questions on your behalf. If this restructuring is going on in the context of some larger time sensitive deal, they may throw something your way to not screw up the timeline. Of course, this all depends on your tolerance for pain.

Yea, I pinged the acting CEO... but I really should have had a lawyer make the inquiry to the founder & lead investor.

Re: Startup Stock Options – Why a Good Deal Has Gone Bad

#382
post #348

I was part of a very well know incubator and a very early employee at a flagship company. Founder blew tons of cash and dilutions but that is part of it and I didn’t mind. What was ethically shady was shortly after I left with 4yrs vested they decided to restructure the entire company so they could attract investment. They took all the debt from the original company and put that in a shell company that then owned a p…

That sounds like straight up shareholder fraud to me.

Sure felt that way.

Re: Startup Stock Options – Why a Good Deal Has Gone Bad

#383

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Send to lawyer's office to pressure you. It doesn't take a lot of imagination to see that this can happen. People are generally naive, and there are just a few that will resist and fight.

Very few people also have their own lawyers, although pretty much everyone involved in a startup should have one.

This is one of biggest recent learnings. If you go to start up, make sure to understand also the legislation around labor, private contracts and equity. You will be dealing with people personalities much closer than in a big co.

Re: Startup Stock Options – Why a Good Deal Has Gone Bad

#384
post #183

I made a bunch of money from ISOs at large, established companies. I made zero (well, negative, really) from startup stock options, even before things got really shifty in the 2000s. One startup that I left, that is now a billion dollar company, simply decided to "extinguish" the shares I bought a few years after I resigned. I was probably cheated, but it's not worth the effort to go after them and they know it. Trea…

>Treat startup options as wastepaper. I must ask - is there a hint of hyperbole here or are you dead serious? I currently work for a startup, and let's just say... I could've negotiated better on options when I joined. It's been on my mind to bring that up during my performance review. Is that a fool's errand then? What is your advice when working at startups?

Not GP but I would be prepared as one would in any company, bigCo or startup when discussing compensation. I.e.: Be prepared for a money conversation and have a Plan B ready to execute.

Re: Startup Stock Options – Why a Good Deal Has Gone Bad

#385
post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not exactly a unique experience, but my .05 - I started of at a startup with a "lol just do it" attitude to whatever the problem was. Worked 12 hours a day a lot, was stressed out all the time, didn't have a life, got calls at odd hours to deploy...but, if I didn't have that experience, I wouldn't have grown nearly as fast. Got to see all aspects of the products and the consequences of the decisions we made early on.…

"A friend grew from junior developer to director of IT at that startup, so there's that aspect as well, though I have also seen a number of startups hire leadership outside." This was the main benefit I got from a startup, but that also required winning something of a startup lottery. I was at a company that went from two to 200+ engineers. I was able to grow into the tech lead of the entire thing. That put me into a…

The matching start-up TL to mid-level FAANG seems fair to my observations.

Re: Startup Stock Options – Why a Good Deal Has Gone Bad

#386
post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At a start-up? How do you manage live/work balance? Are there any on-call duties? Thanks in advance.

Eng at my startup (I'm a founder) can work a straight 40-45 hours per week, which translates into probably about 30h/week of heads-down coding, and be highly appreciated. We rotate on-call duties, but seriously, if you're fighting fires all the time, it's because you're bad at computers. Get some discipline about writing code that doesn't blow up constantly, get good at blue-green deploys, do code review, run post-mo…

[deleted]

Re: Startup Stock Options – Why a Good Deal Has Gone Bad

#387

I joined a company where my offer letter had two salary options: A higher salary with less stock, or a lower salary with higher stock. (It wasn't a very large difference.) About a year later, we were sold, and the payout from the stock did not justify the salary difference. In order to justify the difference, the payout needed to be about 20x. When I confronted the CEO she just changed the subject, and didn't underst…

To clarify, were you expecting a 20x payout on your stock, or was the payout was 20x less than what you were expecting? Either way, sounds like you got bamboozled when you signed the offer letter. I'd almost always take a higher salary at a startup. The vast majority of startups aren't anywhere near Facebook or Google.

I didn't expect anything with regard to stock value. I know that most startups are fly-by-night, and if the sale didn't happen when it happened, I was going to go somewhere else and leave behind my options.

The reason why I confronted her had less to do with the payout from the sale, and more to do with her general attitude towards compensation.

To put it bluntly, she continued to pay well below market rate, and if she didn't pay up, everyone was going to trickle out the door as we got market rate jobs elsewhere. No one works in an aqui-hire situation below market rate. Her views on compensation were so bad that she had me at the same starting salary that I had when I worked under the same parent company, 5 years prior.

Needless to say, shortly after my conversation with our CEO, she was fired by the parent company, and the new owners promptly fixed the compensation problem.

Re: Startup Stock Options – Why a Good Deal Has Gone Bad

#388

I joined a company where my offer letter had two salary options: A higher salary with less stock, or a lower salary with higher stock. (It wasn't a very large difference.) About a year later, we were sold, and the payout from the stock did not justify the salary difference. In order to justify the difference, the payout needed to be about 20x. When I confronted the CEO she just changed the subject, and didn't underst…

Why do you fault her for selling?

I don't! If the company wasn't sold I was going to find another job.

The bigger problem was that she was setting general compensation far below what was competitive.

The new parent company fired her, and gave us all big raises and retention bonuses.

Re: Startup Stock Options – Why a Good Deal Has Gone Bad

#389
post #183

I made a bunch of money from ISOs at large, established companies. I made zero (well, negative, really) from startup stock options, even before things got really shifty in the 2000s. One startup that I left, that is now a billion dollar company, simply decided to "extinguish" the shares I bought a few years after I resigned. I was probably cheated, but it's not worth the effort to go after them and they know it. Trea…

>Treat startup options as wastepaper. I must ask - is there a hint of hyperbole here or are you dead serious? I currently work for a startup, and let's just say... I could've negotiated better on options when I joined. It's been on my mind to bring that up during my performance review. Is that a fool's errand then? What is your advice when working at startups?

It's commonly stated around here that VCs expect 9/10 of their companies to fail. So yeah, theres a good chance they are worthless. I think lottery tickets are a better metaphor, as they can be worth something. Wastepaper is hyperbole.

I don't think its foolish to ask for more equity as compensation, though obviously I don't know anything about your performance or current compensation. :) In fact, I would recommend negotiating better. Sibling comment has good advice on preparation. I would add talk to an accountant about tax considerations, and talk to a lawyer about the legal aspects of it. The last time I talked to a lawyer, it was ~$120, and that was a somewhat complicated situation. If you don't want to spend that much money on something that could be worth thousands or millions, well... You might end up like a lot of the other posters in this thread, and that is sad.

Seriously, a number of the posts in this thread likely wouldnt have happened, or could likely be resolved had the victim talked to a lawyer. Its like if you were robbed; you call the cops. Some people are saying its not worth it, it costs too much money, etc. If you arent going to call the cops, you can be robbed with impunity. It also means the thieves might grow bold, causing more headaches for the rest of us.

A number of people have said that the company/management told them that talking to a lawyer would be a waste. This is the thief telling you not to call the cops. You wouldn't take legal advice from a thief, right?? At least one person stated that the company "made" them sign something. This is the thief saying you "have" to give them something. If you sign something saying they can take whats yours, then they can. So talk to a lawyer before agreeing. The more upset they get, the more pressure they apply; the more likely it is that you need to talk to a lawyer.

Please, everyone, stand up for yourselves and get a lawyer. There are so many sad stories in this thread. The idea that people making 6 figures, with equity that could be worth that much or more can't spend ~$100 bucks to protect themselves!? It's appalling. Saying that it costs too much, not worth it, it wont matter anyway; that is like Stockholm Syndrome. Ok, that was hyperbole, but seriously, protect yourself.

Edit: EVIDENCE! The cops can't do anything without evidence, neither can the courts. Well, your testimony is worth something, but its better to get it in writing. Consult your local laws, or a lawyer regarding things like audio recordings, recording phone calls, etc.

Post reply on HN