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996, GitHub, and China's digital workers rights awakening

chanind.github.io

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Re: 996, GitHub, and China's digital workers rights awakening

#111

Post by NotPaidToPost »

jialutu wrote: post #107

The working hours is one thing. What I am most curious about is does more hours being put in mean more/better work output; ie does the 996 work culture actually means a higher output, even if by a slight margin? Personally my opinion is that coding is not like the assembly line where more hours mean more things that's produced, but more lines of code can mean absolutely nothing (sometimes can even be a negative). How…

9am-9pm really is the period of presence in office. It's always that way in countries where the stats show high "working hours".

It is also traditional in Chinese work culture to have a nap after lunch, which provides a break and helps with staying later. Dinner is also usually early (6pm) so 9am-9pm days mean a lunch break and a dinner break.

Working 6 days a week has been quite standard in Asia. I remember Korea moved to 2-day weekends only a few years ago, and it's hard to change work culture.

It's probably also compounded by the fact that in China there is no day off for shops, restaurants, banks, etc. Everything is open 7 days a week by default, which is great as a consumer but probably means pressure on staff.

Re: 996, GitHub, and China's digital workers rights awakening

#112

Post by adventured »

netrus wrote: post #108

Interesting observation from Germany: I have encountered some reports about 996 in main-stream media in the past weeks. However, the spin was that Chinese workers are proud to work 996, or demand not to work MORE than 996 - in essence: Brace yourselves Germans, the Chinese people will crush you with their productivity.

> in essence: Brace yourselves Germans, the Chinese people will crush you with their productivity.

996 isn't a matter of productivity (other than perhaps indicating exceptionally poor productivity). Productivity is closer related to how much output you generate in a given unit of time.

Brace yourself Chinese, the Germans are smashing you when it comes to productivity with their $48,000 GDP per capita and 30 hours per week of work.

A balanced mixture of high value output and quality of life (fewer hours worked) is the ideal. If China had an epic GDP per capita, it'd be worth considering the merits of how they're doing things. As it is now, they're still losing horribly. The premise properly should be that 996 dies - it becomes an absurdity, a relic of development - as they push up the economic ladder. If they can't escape the middle income trap, that may never happen.

Re: 996, GitHub, and China's digital workers rights awakening

#113

Post by jialutu »

NotPaidToPost wrote: post #111
jialutu wrote: post #107

The working hours is one thing. What I am most curious about is does more hours being put in mean more/better work output; ie does the 996 work culture actually means a higher output, even if by a slight margin? Personally my opinion is that coding is not like the assembly line where more hours mean more things that's produced, but more lines of code can mean absolutely nothing (sometimes can even be a negative). How…

9am-9pm really is the period of presence in office. It's always that way in countries where the stats show high "working hours". It is also traditional in Chinese work culture to have a nap after lunch, which provides a break and helps with staying later. Dinner is also usually early (6pm) so 9am-9pm days mean a lunch break and a dinner break. Working 6 days a week has been quite standard in Asia. I remember Korea mo…

So a 40 hour work week does not mean 40 productive hours. Let's say that you are only truly productive at a flat rate of 40% of your work time, then 40 hour work week means 16 productive hours per week, whereas 996, 72 hours a week means 28.8 productive hours per week.

Now my question is, is the assumption of productive hour ratio real or does it start high and end low? And if my assumption of the flat productive ratio is true, then does it actually yield any good results?

Re: 996, GitHub, and China's digital workers rights awakening

#114

Post by NotPaidToPost »

jialutu wrote: post #113
NotPaidToPost wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

9am-9pm really is the period of presence in office. It's always that way in countries where the stats show high "working hours". It is also traditional in Chinese work culture to have a nap after lunch, which provides a break and helps with staying later. Dinner is also usually early (6pm) so 9am-9pm days mean a lunch break and a dinner break. Working 6 days a week has been quite standard in Asia. I remember Korea mo…

So a 40 hour work week does not mean 40 productive hours. Let's say that you are only truly productive at a flat rate of 40% of your work time, then 40 hour work week means 16 productive hours per week, whereas 996, 72 hours a week means 28.8 productive hours per week. Now my question is, is the assumption of productive hour ratio real or does it start high and end low? And if my assumption of the flat productive rat…

> Let's say that you are only truly productive at a flat rate of 40% of your work time

That's not the case. Hourly productivity decreases at some point.

The law of diminishing returns is at play here. Working longer hours leads to higher overall output up to a point as the marginal increase diminishes.

Then, at some point you are too tired and produces bad software that will cost to fix.

If your employer pays you a flat rate then it is profitable to make you work long hours up to the point when you start screwing up. If they pay you by the hour or if they pay you overtime, rationally they shouldn't push you beyond the point where your hourly output is too low to justify your pay.

Re: 996, GitHub, and China's digital workers rights awakening

#115

Post by chvid »

netheril96 wrote: post #109
chvid wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They don't. They "blacklist" block by ip-address. At least that was what seemed to be going on the last time I was there. It was fairly easy to bypass; I did it with a SSH-tunnel other people do it with VPN. It seem like a completely normal thing (amongst Chinese and certainly expats) to have a VPN. I am pretty sure since this 996-protest movement concerns tech workers that it will spread with no problem. Also it wil…

SSH-tunnel will quickly degrade in throughput if you use it to breach the GFW. Some kind of traffic analysis I think. You need other tools to bypass GFW consistently.

I remember watching a TV show on dr.dk through SSH in China. Not because the GFW blocked dr.dk but because dr.dk didn't allow foreign IP-addresses to watch some of their shows.

Re: 996, GitHub, and China's digital workers rights awakening

#116

Post by jialutu »

NotPaidToPost wrote: post #114
jialutu wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So a 40 hour work week does not mean 40 productive hours. Let's say that you are only truly productive at a flat rate of 40% of your work time, then 40 hour work week means 16 productive hours per week, whereas 996, 72 hours a week means 28.8 productive hours per week. Now my question is, is the assumption of productive hour ratio real or does it start high and end low? And if my assumption of the flat productive rat…

> Let's say that you are only truly productive at a flat rate of 40% of your work time That's not the case. Hourly productivity decreases at some point. The law of diminishing returns is at play here. Working longer hours leads to higher overall output up to a point as the marginal increase diminishes. Then, at some point you are too tired and produces bad software that will cost to fix. If your employer pays you a f…

Look, I completely understand what you are saying, because it's something I believe as well. However, what I am trying to find out more is whether this belief is correct or not and whether anyone has done any actual studies.

Re: 996, GitHub, and China's digital workers rights awakening

#117

Post by NotPaidToPost »

jialutu wrote: post #116
NotPaidToPost wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Let's say that you are only truly productive at a flat rate of 40% of your work time That's not the case. Hourly productivity decreases at some point. The law of diminishing returns is at play here. Working longer hours leads to higher overall output up to a point as the marginal increase diminishes. Then, at some point you are too tired and produces bad software that will cost to fix. If your employer pays you a f…

Look, I completely understand what you are saying, because it's something I believe as well. However, what I am trying to find out more is whether this belief is correct or not and whether anyone has done any actual studies.

This is the way it is. Anyone who's worked in the industry (or any industry?) knows from experience that this is the way it is. I'm sure that there are data available.

A quick Googling for "productivity vs hours worked" led me to this:

http://bleedingheartlibertarians.com/2013/10/hours-worked-an...

Re: 996, GitHub, and China's digital workers rights awakening

#118

Post by humanrebar »

jim-jim-jim wrote: post #60
redwall_hp wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've been saying this for years: censorship, like many things, has been privatized. Things like the First Amendment in the US are inadequate for the modern age, because the majority of our discourse touches multiple intermediary businesses on its way between individuals. There is no "just herpderp yourself" when communication and publication in our digital society involves information coming in contact with a handful…

Bingo. Liberalism is ill-equipped to promote free expression in any meaningful sense, because the principles it presumably holds sacred play second fiddle to the central tenant of the philosophy: private property. Most "live free or die" types wouldn't tell someone struggling against government repression, "If you don't like it, why don't you just leave your country?" Yet they do this all the time on corporate commun…

I think there's a case to be made that public discourse regularly happens on private property and that private organizations that provide public forums as a service must respect speech rights.

Of course, I would prefer an amendment to guarantee this, but it's less tenuous than other precedents.

Re: 996, GitHub, and China's digital workers rights awakening

#119

Post by whoevercares »

adventured wrote: post #112
netrus wrote: post #108

Interesting observation from Germany: I have encountered some reports about 996 in main-stream media in the past weeks. However, the spin was that Chinese workers are proud to work 996, or demand not to work MORE than 996 - in essence: Brace yourselves Germans, the Chinese people will crush you with their productivity.

> in essence: Brace yourselves Germans, the Chinese people will crush you with their productivity. 996 isn't a matter of productivity (other than perhaps indicating exceptionally poor productivity). Productivity is closer related to how much output you generate in a given unit of time. Brace yourself Chinese, the Germans are smashing you when it comes to productivity with their $48,000 GDP per capita and 30 hours per…

To be fair, China has a HUGE rural population that might be close to 10X Germany size. They can’t even work on tech or any high value added industry because of their low education level on average. So I’d bet per-capita China will NEVER beat German while tech sector 10X more productive and 100X bigger in scale

Re: 996, GitHub, and China's digital workers rights awakening

#120

Post by Proven »

You can stay at home or get a job at Foxconn if you don't like your digital job.

The problem is it's not much better elsewhere in China, and what's common to all locations within mainland China is.... the government.

If you're in Shenzhen, you have shitty rights. If you're 10 miles south, you're OK _even if_ you work for the same company (let's say Huawei) because you are in Hong Kong and don't live under a highly autocratic government.

This isn't a problem of worker exploitation in free market capitalism.

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