The Dutch East India Co was richer than Apple, Google, Facebook combined (2017) • Hacker News Board

Re: The Dutch East India Co was richer than Apple, Google, Facebook combined (2017)

#151

Post by Hatamatarat » Wed, Apr 10, 2019, 6:32 PM UTC

Razengan wrote: post #150

Hatamatarat wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everybody can go to almost anywhere in the world within basically 24 hours? I will have to disagree with that. I'm a citizen of a certain "developing" country and I can't get a tourist visa to more than half of the world, and 100% of Western countries.

Yes, I meant technically, not politically. In the latter, there is less freedom now than there used to be, but there are more means now than there were, to escape the bracket one was born into.

Means to escape from bracket of being born in some no-name Belgium city to California, sure. Means of escaping from a savage country no one even knows the name of? Haha, no.

Most people that escape from worst countries don't escape on the basis of merit, but luck.

Re: The Dutch East India Co was richer than Apple, Google, Facebook combined (2017)

#152

Post by rovolo » Wed, Apr 10, 2019, 6:43 PM UTC

em500 wrote: post #74

em500 wrote: post #68

This is a non-sensical article, relying on some obfuscating math hidden behind "Infl. Adjusted". Inflation adjustments gets pretty fuzzy even in the same nation across a few decades, let alone between different nations across centuries. The article equates the 1637 peak valuation of 78 million guilders with current day 7,900,000 million dollars (not the 79,000 million according to the bad math in the article!). Now c…

As another reference point, an annual salary for low-to-medium skilled labour in mid-17th century Holland was around 100 to 200 guilders, which would be about 20 million USD according to the implied "Infl. Adjusted" conversion in the article (upon which the entire premise of the article rests).

From this other source [0], I see a min/max historical Guilder in 1600-1700 to 2016 Euro rate of 1 guilder to 8-18 Euro. That would be 800-3200 Euro per year for a laborer, which is comparable with the poorest nations today. That seems accurate for a pre-industrial time.

Using that source, 78m Guilders would be 624m-1.4b Euro today.

[0] http://www.iisg.nl/hpw/calculate.php

Re: The Dutch East India Co was richer than Apple, Google, Facebook combined (2017)

#153

Post by Razengan » Wed, Apr 10, 2019, 6:48 PM UTC

Hatamatarat wrote: post #151

Razengan wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, I meant technically, not politically. In the latter, there is less freedom now than there used to be, but there are more means now than there were, to escape the bracket one was born into.

Means to escape from bracket of being born in some no-name Belgium city to California, sure. Means of escaping from a savage country no one even knows the name of? Haha, no. Most people that escape from worst countries don't escape on the basis of merit, but luck.

or money/connections/asylum?

Re: The Dutch East India Co was richer than Apple, Google, Facebook combined (2017)

#154

Post by mtnGoat » Wed, Apr 10, 2019, 7:27 PM UTC

CydeWeys wrote: post #126

Isamu wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with the spirit of what you are getting at. Except that it's not fair to simply assume that a good salary was roughly similar in terms of purchasing power across the a few centuries. In fact at that time middle income people were much poorer in terms of what they were able to consume, purchase, and barter.

As one example, the power loom didn't exist until the late 18th century. Before then, clothing was really expensive because an unbelievable amount of hand labor had to go into it. The average person did not own a lot of clothing, and the clothing they did have cost them relatively a lot of money.

Which is also where the term "selling the shirt off your back" came from. Back in the days when clothing was worth a lot more, you could actually trade your clothes for stuff in a pinch. Nowadays clothing ain't worth much.

Re: The Dutch East India Co was richer than Apple, Google, Facebook combined (2017)

#155

Post by oarsinsync » Wed, Apr 10, 2019, 7:29 PM UTC

cromulent wrote: post #142

Razengan wrote: post #135

These comparisons of wealth across different eras seem kind of stupid: I, a barely-middle-class individual, can own and have access to things and services that the richest nobility of 100 years ago wouldn't have been able to even dream of. Everybody can go to almost anywhere in the world within basically 24 hours, whereas a century ago long-distance journeys were measured in weeks and months. In a couple generations,…

It does seem really difficult. You have to pay people enough to live a normal life, which has changed dramatically over time. Now we expect disposable income, savings, healthcare, car purchase, devices etc. Back then, enough to eat daily may have been enough.

I'd settle for the previous generation which could afford to buy a house and own it in full before their kids became adults.

Re: The Dutch East India Co was richer than Apple, Google, Facebook combined (2017)

#156

Post by mtnGoat » Wed, Apr 10, 2019, 7:34 PM UTC

flexie wrote: post #131

RosanaAnaDana wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you dig into that more and explain why it is so difficult to compare wealth across centuries? It would seem to me that you would just find some basic unit to divide against (a dozen eggs; a liter of milk; a sq kilometer of land), and then scale? Whats wrong with my presumption? I know there must be quite a bit wrong with it, but I'm not familiar with economics whatsoever.

Because inflation doesn't take into account all the improvements that have been made. A liter of milk or a dozen eggs may almost be the same in 1630 and 2019. A square kilometer of farm land is not, since the crop yield today far exceeds that of 1630 (it has increased almost tenfold since 1930 due to mechanization, fertilizers and new grain types). So the same piece of land that could feed a family in 1930 now almost…

im not sure i agree, the romans had running hot and cold water, onboard their luxury ships, not just in a house. so the richest king in 1630 probably had a lot more luxuries than you are giving credit for.

Also there were many simple remedies for things like headaches dating back to the BC years.

Re: The Dutch East India Co was richer than Apple, Google, Facebook combined (2017)

#157

Post by digitaltrees » Wed, Apr 10, 2019, 7:58 PM UTC

arithma wrote: post #132

CydeWeys wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It does make you wonder what the inflation-adjusted figures are purported to mean even, given that they result in completely ridiculous results. By contrast, an inflation calculator tells me that $100 one hundred years ago is worth around $2,500 now (so 25X). And according to this article https://www.jstor.org/stable/1820827?seq=1#metadata_info_tab... , a pretty typical wage back then was $0.50 per hour. 25X that is…

One aspect to it is that today a smartphone costs a few hundred dollars. Back in the day, no amount of money would allow you to buy one. Maybe to compare East India to current top companies, you'd need to compare the percentage of global GDP to estimate how big they are (and how large they'd most likely be if they continued to exist.) The base/average salary comparison also makes a lot of sense.

This is great analysis. If you think about the amount of global trade that was controlled by the Dutch East India Co, there is no modern company even close. Apple isn't even close, the have a small sliver of a small part of the global economy. Even Exxon, is only one small part of the economy.

Re: The Dutch East India Co was richer than Apple, Google, Facebook combined (2017)

#158

Post by zeristor » Wed, Apr 10, 2019, 8:38 PM UTC

JackFr wrote: post #99

close04 wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh I'm sure it's a lot of work. But that's the whole point right? Getting a proper answer. Guesstimates and half calculations are also imprecise enough to make such articles basically just an exercise in imagination rather than an accurate representation of the facts.

There is a tremendous amount of work by economists measuring these things, which is why this article is so irritating. The point that the Dutch were an economic superpower in the 17th century is not off base: they were only country to maintain colonies in North & South America, Africa and Asia. The point that the Dutch East India Company was probably the first company set up under a system of modern financial capital…

But is it click bait or fake news?

Re: The Dutch East India Co was richer than Apple, Google, Facebook combined (2017)

#159

Post by amriksohata » Wed, Apr 10, 2019, 8:48 PM UTC

Even if the inflation figures arent 100% accurate, there is no doubt this was the reason behind the British calling India the "jewel" in the crown, so many countries looted India, including the Portuguese, Dutch and British. They had spices and cotton, the modern day "oil" now that there is nothing more to be gained from India they have moved onto the middle east, then onto the services sector blah blah wherever the next area that can be exploited with greed.

Re: The Dutch East India Co was richer than Apple, Google, Facebook combined (2017)

#160

Post by 0db532a0 » Wed, Apr 10, 2019, 10:07 PM UTC

jacquesm wrote: post #117

0db532a0 wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It wasn’t a crime at the time.

The fact that something is 'not a crime' does not mean it can not be obviously wrong.

I don't agree. Why are you so sure that you know what is obviously right and obviously wrong? That is a viewpoint which is both arrogant, and also has no objective grounding to talk about.