B Before A • Hacker News Board

Re: B Before A

#11

Post by sverhagen » Wed, Apr 10, 2019, 1:17 AM UTC

cryptonector wrote: post #9

Doxterpepper wrote: post #5

Is it not unreasonable to believe that some things worth knowing or doing (A) are worth the prerequisite work (B)? If your class on data mining requires fundamentals in advanced databases why is it unreasonable to require people have taken that course to ensure the whole class is on the same page? Besides in most colleges you can sometimes skip those prerequisite courses if you can demonstrate adequate knowledge in t…

Did you not read TFA? The issue is that a) it can be greatly discouraging or impossible to fit in the subject's schedule, b) a waste of time and effort if the requirement isn't that hard, c) there may be a better way: the a, b, a, b pattern, which is to say: do A until you need to do some of B, then go back to A until you need more of B, and so on. The a,b,a,b pattern is the right answer in at least some cases.

I think it's important to realize that you're optimizing for different things. "a, b, a, b" optimizes for, let's say, "attention span", while "B, A" optimizes for some sort of efficiency. Not everyone's attention span or need for efficiency are the same.

Re: B Before A

#12

Post by mcphage » Wed, Apr 10, 2019, 1:36 AM UTC

sverhagen wrote: post #11

cryptonector wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did you not read TFA? The issue is that a) it can be greatly discouraging or impossible to fit in the subject's schedule, b) a waste of time and effort if the requirement isn't that hard, c) there may be a better way: the a, b, a, b pattern, which is to say: do A until you need to do some of B, then go back to A until you need more of B, and so on. The a,b,a,b pattern is the right answer in at least some cases.

I think it's important to realize that you're optimizing for different things. "a, b, a, b" optimizes for, let's say, "attention span", while "B, A" optimizes for some sort of efficiency. Not everyone's attention span or need for efficiency are the same.

> while "B, A" optimizes for some sort of efficiency

What sort of efficiency do you think this optimizes for?

Re: B Before A

#13

Post by sverhagen » Wed, Apr 10, 2019, 3:33 AM UTC

mcphage wrote: post #12

sverhagen wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's important to realize that you're optimizing for different things. "a, b, a, b" optimizes for, let's say, "attention span", while "B, A" optimizes for some sort of efficiency. Not everyone's attention span or need for efficiency are the same.

> while "B, A" optimizes for some sort of efficiency What sort of efficiency do you think this optimizes for?

A perception of less time spent overall, perhaps. Or less loss/dropout from not being able to achieve A (for lack of B). I personally prefer "a, b, a", so I have to imagine.

Re: B Before A

#14

Post by earenndil » Wed, Apr 10, 2019, 3:54 AM UTC

Xcelerate wrote: post #3

I remember when I was little, I wanted to learn piano, and everyone recommended simple pieces for me to play. They all looked kind of boring, so I printed off the sheet music for Liszt’s Transcendental Etude No. 10 and started practicing. I can’t say that my skill is anywhere close to that of a concert pianist, but I also can’t say I would have ever stuck with piano if I was forced to practice that other stuff first.

As someone who is kind-of sort-of learning piano, in more-or-less this way, thank you for giving me hope! I wasn't sure, based on anecdotal evidence, if just sitting and learning 'too-hard' pieces (and all the scales and arpeggios) would actually get me anywhere.

Re: B Before A

#15

Post by gumby » Wed, Apr 10, 2019, 6:45 AM UTC

One of the many things I enjoyed about MIT was that I could register for almost any class as long as I could convince the professor I wouldn't be a drag on the progress (this was in the 80s). Let me take all sorts of interesting classes on subjects not part of my degree program (Optics! Machining! Nuclear strategy!).

Sometimes I ended up spending as much time running to keep up (lots of b,bmb) as I did following the class itself (A). But the system tolerated it.

Re: B Before A

#16

Post by dasil003 » Wed, Apr 10, 2019, 7:43 AM UTC

The choice of A and B here seems designed merely to frame the conversation as unnecessary prerequisites versus if you say "you must do A before B" it just sounds more agreeable to begin with. In practice though, whether a prerequisite makes sense or not is highly contextual and is not done justice by a reductionist abstraction.

Re: B Before A

#17

Post by mcv » Wed, Apr 10, 2019, 2:35 PM UTC

My son wanted to play electric guitar. Being all responsible about it, I suggested starting with acoustic first. Now he's not playing any guitar.

Re: B Before A

#18

Post by cryptonector » Wed, Apr 10, 2019, 4:08 PM UTC

sverhagen wrote: post #11

cryptonector wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did you not read TFA? The issue is that a) it can be greatly discouraging or impossible to fit in the subject's schedule, b) a waste of time and effort if the requirement isn't that hard, c) there may be a better way: the a, b, a, b pattern, which is to say: do A until you need to do some of B, then go back to A until you need more of B, and so on. The a,b,a,b pattern is the right answer in at least some cases.

I think it's important to realize that you're optimizing for different things. "a, b, a, b" optimizes for, let's say, "attention span", while "B, A" optimizes for some sort of efficiency. Not everyone's attention span or need for efficiency are the same.

If abab lets you start being productive sooner, then abab is more productive. It may or may not be more efficient than B-before-A -- I doubt we can conclude one way or the other in the general case, so I don't see the point in discussing the two approaches' efficiency.

Re: B Before A

#19

Post by cryptonector » Wed, Apr 10, 2019, 4:13 PM UTC

sverhagen wrote: post #13

mcphage wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> while "B, A" optimizes for some sort of efficiency What sort of efficiency do you think this optimizes for?

A perception of less time spent overall, perhaps. Or less loss/dropout from not being able to achieve A (for lack of B). I personally prefer "a, b, a", so I have to imagine.

On the other hand, if B-before-A is discouraging, then it may be very inefficient. It could act as a filter, but not so much for skill or any particularly useful personal attribute so much as "enjoys B-before-A well enough", which isn't particularly indicative of anything.

In general I do think that B-before-A is a very useful approach, but it cannot be the only approach. For one, it doesn't scale, not as the chain of Bs grows longer over time. We teach a lot more math to students today than 100 years ago, but almost certainly we're taking shortcuts that essentially amount to a,b,a,b -- how else can we manage the otherwise ever-growing cognitive burden of the sum of our knowledge?