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Shenmue's Much-Hated Forklifts Feel Revolutionary Today

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Re: Shenmue's Much-Hated Forklifts Feel Revolutionary Today

#61

Post by tdb7893 »

livueta wrote: post #36
tdb7893 wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A ton of other people hated it though. Is there a reason people hate Kotaku so much? It's always seemed like a pretty normal game site to me except for the fact it leans a little more liberal on social issues.

Social issues definitely seem like part of it now, but Kotaku was disliked in hardcore communities well before Gamergate or any of that other nonsense. My recollections of late-2000s Kotaku are similar to how I feel today about a lot of tech publications where personal expertise in their subject area makes it painfully obvious that they don't really know what they're talking about. When you spend hundreds to thousand…

I mean I game a lot and overall their quality seems pretty average compared to other sites. Other sites have the same issues but don't get near the same amount of hate.

I get thinking it's quality is middling but I've ran into a lot of opinions that go beyond that quite frequently.

Re: Shenmue's Much-Hated Forklifts Feel Revolutionary Today

#62

Post by scott_s »

bitwize wrote: post #46
tdb7893 wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A ton of other people hated it though. Is there a reason people hate Kotaku so much? It's always seemed like a pretty normal game site to me except for the fact it leans a little more liberal on social issues.

The standard narrative is that Goobergrape tarnished Kotaku's reputation through organized hate campaigns because they are literal womanhating fascists or whatever. The truth is a bit more complex. * Game journalists are often shit-tier journalists who cover games as part of paying their dues and building their portfolio so they can advance one step closer to their dream: covering Hollywood, or writing for The New Yo…

> Game journalists are often shit-tier gamers ... We've seen this in the game journalist who couldn't cear the tutorial level of Cuphead,

The notion that a 26 minute clip of someone playing a demo of a game at a tradeshow is emblematic of any large-scale trend should be dispelled by mundane explanation from that person: https://venturebeat.com/2017/09/08/the-deanbeat-our-cuphead-...

Re: Shenmue's Much-Hated Forklifts Feel Revolutionary Today

#63

Post by scott_s »

livueta wrote: post #36
tdb7893 wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A ton of other people hated it though. Is there a reason people hate Kotaku so much? It's always seemed like a pretty normal game site to me except for the fact it leans a little more liberal on social issues.

Social issues definitely seem like part of it now, but Kotaku was disliked in hardcore communities well before Gamergate or any of that other nonsense. My recollections of late-2000s Kotaku are similar to how I feel today about a lot of tech publications where personal expertise in their subject area makes it painfully obvious that they don't really know what they're talking about. When you spend hundreds to thousand…

I think the author of this piece clearly considers Shenmue one of "their" games. I don't think we're seeing the result of an outsider, but quite the opposite. Someone who has analyzed this game this deeply is clearly enmeshed in it. Rather, I think we're seeing two effects:

1. When someone loves a game, I think they have a tendency to over-estimate how disliked some of the more unusual aspects of it are.

2. When someone loves a game, and they point out that most people don't like some aspect of that game, other people who also love that game group themselves into "most people" and then disagree with the author.

What I think is more important is that whether or not the forklifts were hated is not the point. The author's point is that the forklifts were an integral part of the narrative experience of the game, as they contrasted player experience with that of the main character. Focusing on a throw-away "so-and-so is hated" is silly.

Re: Shenmue's Much-Hated Forklifts Feel Revolutionary Today

#64

Post by scott_s »

ekianjo wrote: post #4

Never hated the forklift. A claim without basis, common on clickbaity Kotaku.

Hating the forklifts is not the point of the piece. Ignore that if it bothers you, and continue reading for an insightful take on how narrative and gameplay interact in a game you played.

Re: Shenmue's Much-Hated Forklifts Feel Revolutionary Today

#65

Post by jlawson »

scott_s wrote: post #62
bitwize wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The standard narrative is that Goobergrape tarnished Kotaku's reputation through organized hate campaigns because they are literal womanhating fascists or whatever. The truth is a bit more complex. * Game journalists are often shit-tier journalists who cover games as part of paying their dues and building their portfolio so they can advance one step closer to their dream: covering Hollywood, or writing for The New Yo…

> Game journalists are often shit-tier gamers ... We've seen this in the game journalist who couldn't cear the tutorial level of Cuphead, The notion that a 26 minute clip of someone playing a demo of a game at a tradeshow is emblematic of any large-scale trend should be dispelled by mundane explanation from that person: https://venturebeat.com/2017/09/08/the-deanbeat-our-cuphead-...

It's not the only example, there's also the Polygon DOOM video.

https://www.reddit.com/r/OutOfTheLoop/comments/4k4mt7/what_i...

How can there be anyone in the entire office of such a website who is that bad?

Re: Shenmue's Much-Hated Forklifts Feel Revolutionary Today

#66

Post by jasonmp85 »

scott_s wrote: post #64
ekianjo wrote: post #4

Never hated the forklift. A claim without basis, common on clickbaity Kotaku.

Hating the forklifts is not the point of the piece. Ignore that if it bothers you, and continue reading for an insightful take on how narrative and gameplay interact in a game you played.

IDK, I've got a suspicion OP has some other axe to grind with Kotaku.

Re: Shenmue's Much-Hated Forklifts Feel Revolutionary Today

#67

Post by billfruit »

billfruit wrote: post #33
tdb7893 wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A ton of other people hated it though. Is there a reason people hate Kotaku so much? It's always seemed like a pretty normal game site to me except for the fact it leans a little more liberal on social issues.

Kotaku is very partisan in its Nintendo fanboyism. In their view Nintendo can't do anything wrong, where as the slightest hint of a mistake from Valve or Sega or others, they pounce upon with extreme outrage. Also they kind of patronizingly fetishize Japanese gaming culture, over others. They'll have pages and pages of articles about even the most obscure Pokemon game releases, while they give lesser coverage of a To…

And Kotaku has a weird focus on things like "cosplay", which as I perceive isn't really a part of gaming culture, for example I don't see any other gaming press making that conflation.

Re: Shenmue's Much-Hated Forklifts Feel Revolutionary Today

#68

Post by caconym_ »

bitwize wrote: post #46
tdb7893 wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A ton of other people hated it though. Is there a reason people hate Kotaku so much? It's always seemed like a pretty normal game site to me except for the fact it leans a little more liberal on social issues.

The standard narrative is that Goobergrape tarnished Kotaku's reputation through organized hate campaigns because they are literal womanhating fascists or whatever. The truth is a bit more complex. * Game journalists are often shit-tier journalists who cover games as part of paying their dues and building their portfolio so they can advance one step closer to their dream: covering Hollywood, or writing for The New Yo…

> the recent outcry from game journalists to add an easy mode to Sekiro to allow them to "experience" the game when for a From Software game, the difficulty IS the game experience.

Based on what I read on Kotaku (and elsewhere) about Sekiro and the difficulty issue, this is an incredible mischaracterization of the truth (with a healthy dose of opinion) and, for me, enough to disqualify the rest of your comment from serious consideration.

Re: Shenmue's Much-Hated Forklifts Feel Revolutionary Today

#69

Post by aasasd »

bgeeek wrote: post #35
jmkd wrote: post #29

Forklifts were a highlight for me. When you took Ryu to the arcade to play Space Harrier etc there's a well-established if indirect teasing of the fourth wall. After spending in-game money to beat your in-game (in-game) high score, you begin to ask yourself what on earth you are doing. When Ryu gets the job as the forklift driver this same question leads directly to a beautifully uncomfortable awareness of your self,…

I was wracking my brain trying to think of early '80s job-simulator games, mostly because there aren't many at all. I'm not sure that I'd class Trashman, Paperboy or Tapper (fond of all 3 btw) as job-simulators. Other than driving and flightsims, I can't think of any from the early '80s :) Late '80s perhaps.

Star Trader from '74 seems to be the inspiration for Trade Wars and Drugwars of '84―they're essentially ‘grind simulators’ with the player looking at sheets of numbers for a lot of the time. However, the apex of popularity of such games was likely in the early-mid 90s when office drones apparently sought to get their minds off the grind with a different grind, and countless knock-offs appeared for DOS.

Still, this ‘spreadsheet’ gameplay is rather different from box stacking. Some Game & Watch titles might be closer.

Re: Shenmue's Much-Hated Forklifts Feel Revolutionary Today

#70

Post by gryson »

CoolGuySteve wrote: post #44
jmkd wrote: post #29

Forklifts were a highlight for me. When you took Ryu to the arcade to play Space Harrier etc there's a well-established if indirect teasing of the fourth wall. After spending in-game money to beat your in-game (in-game) high score, you begin to ask yourself what on earth you are doing. When Ryu gets the job as the forklift driver this same question leads directly to a beautifully uncomfortable awareness of your self,…

A more apt comparison is probably 1999's Tokyo Bus Guide for Dreamcast. The developers of both games were probably aware of each other. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sBxFiNxdso4

Tokyo Bus Guide is my favorite Dreamcast game.

It requires intense focus. A single mistake 15 minutes into a course will result in a game over (small mistakes like going out of the lane or forgetting to signal the next stop will deduct points, but if you even tap another car then that's it). You have to find the perfect level of pressure to apply to the analog trigger to get the bus at the correct speed. I find it meditative in a way that resembles when I work on something that requires very precise and fine movement, like soldering or fine woodworking. A course might take 20 minutes to complete, but time seems to pass in an instant, and when it's done I feel incredibly relaxed.

I highly recommend it, at least to try once!

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