US Workers Are Highly Taxed If You Count Premiums • Hacker News Board

Re: US Workers Are Highly Taxed If You Count Premiums

#281

Post by jdietrich » Tue, Apr 09, 2019, 1:47 AM UTC

AlexTWithBeard wrote: post #156

bilbo0s wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder if 10 thousand is a lot for undergraduate education to a German, or Austrian, or French person? EDIT: Doh! Just checked the cost of undergrad in some of those nations. Umm, Yeah. I guess if I were a German or French guy, I'd likely find tuition levels in the US a bit outrageous.

I know that German universities are generally free, while, for example, their UK counterparts charge around 10,000 GBP a year.

The tuition fee in the UK isn't really a fee at all, at least for most domestic students. In practice, it's more like a graduate tax. Student loans are only repayable if you're earning over £25,725 per year. Your repayments are 9% of your income over that threshold. Your loan is automatically forgiven after 30 years. Because of these terms, the vast majority of students never fully repay their loan.

https://www.moneysavingexpert.com/students/student-loans-tui...

Re: US Workers Are Highly Taxed If You Count Premiums

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Post by shuckles » Tue, Apr 09, 2019, 1:56 AM UTC

ajross wrote: post #256

shuckles wrote: post #244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The trust fund is an accounting fiction that doesn't hold any economically productive assets. Congress spent social security's surplus in the general budget and issued special obligation bonds in return that accumulate "interest" on paper but do not ever collect from the government. They cannot be sold on the market. Taxes or debt needs to be raised or benefits need to be cut effectively now. This is from a 1999 OMB…

[flagged]

Where did I say that was my position? My comment was purely an accounting claim; there is little opportunity for spin.

Re: US Workers Are Highly Taxed If You Count Premiums

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Post by AnthonyMouse » Tue, Apr 09, 2019, 1:57 AM UTC

lazulicurio wrote: post #229

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This doesn't seem to be a major problem for the EU, which has unrestricted internal migration but social programs are administered by the individual member states. The idea that the poor will mass migrate to California and the rich will mass migrate to South Dakota is pretty unrealistic. The poor can't afford to live in California even with social assistance, and the rich don't want to live in South Dakota no matter…

> This doesn't seem to be a major problem for the EU, which has unrestricted internal migration but social programs are administered by the individual member states I might be off the mark here, but from my understanding wasn't unrestricted migration one of the big drivers behind Brexit? Or at least the idea that the "poor countries" were "taking advantage" of the "rich countries"?

A lot of the drivers behind Brexit have a tenuous relationship to facts. There are some legitimate reasons to leave, but there are also self-interested parties telling people the lies they want to be told. And "mistaken people believe this" is no support for a position.

The thing about rich people moving to places with lower taxes and poor people moving to places with more services is that it's the sort of thing that seems intuitively obvious until you actually think about it, and you realize it's like arguing that lakes are impossible because water evaporates.

It's not that water doesn't evaporate. It's not that poor people don't prefer more services and rich people don't prefer lower taxes. It's that everything is not one dimensional and there are other factors that outweigh that one by enough that the lake is still full of water.

Re: US Workers Are Highly Taxed If You Count Premiums

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Post by exodus_de » Tue, Apr 09, 2019, 2:02 AM UTC

johnm1019 wrote: post #125

exodus_de wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> My family in Germany throws a fit when they have to pay 50 Euro for something. Socialized insurance rates in Germany are 15% of income. Unless your family doesn't earn any money, they have been paying far more than 50 Euros. > In the US you can happy if your cost for seeing a doctor is less than 4 digits. That isn't generally true. Every insurance plan is different. Cheap plans have a high deductible. It's similar…

This is missing a few important points. 1. The 15% of income has a cap. It's something like after 60k EUR in wages you don't pay anymore. Also, only 7.5% comes out of your paycheck, the employer pays the other half. When I was there a few years ago I was self employed so I had to pay "both sides". It would've worked out to roughly 750EUR/month for health insurance which had _0 deductible_ and _0 coinsurance_ for doct…

> The 15% of income has a cap. It's something like after 60k EUR in wages you don't pay anymore.

...at which point progressive income tax starts kicking in badly.

> Also, only 7.5% comes out of your paycheck, the employer pays the other half.

Guess what, the employer pays 100% of your paycheck, including your vacation, pension, healthcare and taxes. It doesn't really matter to the employer how the cost is labeled. That's why you get to charge more when self-employed.

> The final cost is comparable.

Comparable? It's almost double if you don't take any care. Also, what if you don't have children? It's apples and oranges.

> The 15% is only if you participate in the public system - the private is not tied to your income.

Caveat: You are forced to take part in the public system unless you earn well or you are self-employed.

Re: US Workers Are Highly Taxed If You Count Premiums

#285

Post by lotsofpulp » Tue, Apr 09, 2019, 2:02 AM UTC

Gibbon1 wrote: post #280

ceejayoz wrote: post #258

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I moved from Denmark to the US, and I pay around $400 in health insurance premiums (health, eye, and dental) for a whole family. My health alone is $2,100/month for a family of four. I suspect your employer is paying a large portion of your premiums as a benefit. This is quite common in the US, and a significant portion of the problem, as people think they're getting great insurance "cheap". They're not - it's just…

I've noticed that a lot of employers don't tell workers how much they are paying for health insurance. Because for large companies the number gets rolled into a negociated contract. In my case I do know. My employer pays $930 some a month. My rent used to be $860/month. The other thing the happens is just because you have insurance doesn't mean that healthcare providers aren't trying to jack more money out of you. An…

Employer’s share of premium is on your W-2 tax forms, box 12 code DD.

https://www.irs.gov/affordable-care-act/form-w-2-reporting-o...

Re: US Workers Are Highly Taxed If You Count Premiums

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Post by lotsofpulp » Tue, Apr 09, 2019, 2:08 AM UTC

wbl wrote: post #259

dragonwriter wrote: post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But even that doesn't include the real sting on the tail of US medicine. You pay a fairly high health insurance premium, but if you actually need health services you then pay again through the nose even with insurance "discounts." That's mostly not true if you have an HMO plan, but your employer may not offer HMO plans if it offers insurance, the HMO may not be a good one if it is available, or it may not cover goo…

Employers have to offer HMOs.

Source? I am not aware of any legislation requiring specifically an HMO option, at least in the states I do business in.

Re: US Workers Are Highly Taxed If You Count Premiums

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Post by zeckalpha » Tue, Apr 09, 2019, 2:09 AM UTC

lg wrote: post #267

bilbo0s wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Most of federal spending is medicare, medicaid and social security... Well, there's also Defense, and then service payments on the debt. Those are the big 3 without question. So "the wrong people" must be in there somewhere? But the real reason we give more to the feds is because if we didn't it would be AWESOME for places like New York, Minnesota, Texas, Delaware, California etc, and TERRIBLE for places like Wisco…

and yet the first group of states votes in politicians that raise taxes and the second group votes in politicians that cut taxes?

Those states also pay more to the federal government than they get back.

Re: US Workers Are Highly Taxed If You Count Premiums

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Post by JshWright » Tue, Apr 09, 2019, 2:10 AM UTC

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #111

vonmoltke wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In the US you can happy if your cost for seeing a doctor is less than 4 digits. My wife and I have never paid four figures for a doctor visit, despite having two surgeries (one oral), a calf strain, and a dislocated shoulder (with ER visit) between us. The state of medical care in the US is bad enough as it is; you don't need to make up hyperbolic bullshit to make it seem worse.

A basic non-complication natural child birth will cost at least a couple of thousand out of pocket for most insurances.

With insurance, more complicated births aren't that much more. We were out of pocket $4k for the birth of our twins (maxed our deductible). The total 'sticker price; was over a million USD (they spent a combined 10 weeks in the NICU).

Re: US Workers Are Highly Taxed If You Count Premiums

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Post by mikeash » Tue, Apr 09, 2019, 2:13 AM UTC

tathougies wrote: post #34

Individual US tax payers pay for most of the world's security. This is one tax of being the global super power, so it's not particularly surprising that when you include all things the US tax payer pays for privately that is taxed in other countries, you arrive at a number higher than other similar countries. In reality, there is no country with which we can fairly compare US tax rates.

When I look at what my federal taxes have been funding over the past two decades, it sure doesn’t look like I’m improving global security.

How much better off would the world be if the US military had been too poorly funded to invade Iraq?

Re: US Workers Are Highly Taxed If You Count Premiums

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Post by noelsusman » Tue, Apr 09, 2019, 2:13 AM UTC

splintercell wrote: post #210

maxxxxx wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I fell down the stairs and had a muscle spasm in my back. Had to go an ER. I had insurance that was considered good and it still cost me $350 for 10 minutes with the doctor and a bottle of muscle relaxers.

What is included in that fee is malpractice insurance premiums (because it isn't that nothing can go wrong in that 10 min interaction which causes you to sue the doctor) paid by the doctor. On the top of that, he didn't charge you for what it was, but for what it wasn't and confirming it. Take for instance if that muscle spasm actually lead to something darn serious, the doctor ruled that out, that's why he sent you…

That price has little to do with malpractice premiums. You're paying for the fact that the ER was there, fully staffed, ready to treat literally anything that you could have walked in with at a moment's notice. That and you're subsidizing people who don't pay.