It seems that Google is forgetting the old web • Hacker News Board

Re: It seems that Google is forgetting the old web

#161

Post by JohnFen » Mon, Apr 08, 2019, 4:52 PM UTC

revvx wrote: post #133

kickscondor wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Part of the problem is that their algorithm has become weighted against blogs and personal websites. > Rumors spread that large link pages (for surfing) might be considered “link farms” (and yes on SEO sites they were but these things eventually trickle down to little personal site webmasters too) so these started to be phased out. Then the worry was Blogrolls might be considered link farms so they slowly started to…

It's not Google's fault this time. The problem is that Blogspam is now a (legitimate) industry much bigger than Google can manage. Google Search became a playground for marketing firms to dump content made by low-paid freelancers with algorithmically chosen keywords, links and headers. It's SEO on large scale. Everything is monitored via analytics and automatically posted to Wordpress. Every time Google tweaks its al…

> IMO they're not wrong to fight it.

But if their efforts in fighting it are a large part of the reason that Google search results are getting downright bad, then they're wrong in how they're fighting in.

Re: It seems that Google is forgetting the old web

#162

Post by JohnFen » Mon, Apr 08, 2019, 4:54 PM UTC

revvx wrote: post #140

zrm wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems like the opposite actually -- spam is destroying Google. They're so big that it's worth blackhats spending significant resources to game their algorithm. That induced them to implement a spam filter which is now discarding the ham along with the spam. Which means that smaller search engines that aren't being targeted by spammers are now giving better results. That is a major long-term problem for Google if t…

IME, it's not blackhats anymore causing the problem. It's (legitimate, but shady) marketing agencies and startups handling thousands of customers and with deep pockets to do SEO research.

I count those agencies as a variety of blackhat.

Re: It seems that Google is forgetting the old web

#163

Post by revvx » Mon, Apr 08, 2019, 4:56 PM UTC

JohnFen wrote: post #161

revvx wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not Google's fault this time. The problem is that Blogspam is now a (legitimate) industry much bigger than Google can manage. Google Search became a playground for marketing firms to dump content made by low-paid freelancers with algorithmically chosen keywords, links and headers. It's SEO on large scale. Everything is monitored via analytics and automatically posted to Wordpress. Every time Google tweaks its al…

> IMO they're not wrong to fight it. But if their efforts in fighting it are a large part of the reason that Google search results are getting downright bad, then they're wrong in how they're fighting in.

I agree with you.

What I mean is: I don't think their fight is misguided or evil this time, they're trying to keep the result pages useable for end users. They're just doing a terrible job out of it. (Or: they're doing a worse job than spammers)

Re: It seems that Google is forgetting the old web

#164

Post by Liquix » Mon, Apr 08, 2019, 4:56 PM UTC

lnanek2 wrote: post #159

Liquix wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Google poured billions into their search engine for two decades to make it better . Now that have a ridiculous amount of money and power, the search results get.... objectively worse . Which brings us to the elephant in the room: what are Google's motives behind this (clearly intentional) change? Could something as innocent as training a new neural net or testing a buggy version of the algorithm on subsets of users.…

Maybe bad organic results lead to more ad clicks.

Most definitely. But the folk at Google are very smart, very rich, and already run the most lucrative ad platform in the world. Wouldn't hamstringing their flagship product for the sake of a few extra $B/yr harm them in the long run as more and more users switch to other search engines? They had to have considered that and made the change anyway. What's the endgame? I don't feel it's more ad clicks.

Re: It seems that Google is forgetting the old web

#165

Post by puzzle » Mon, Apr 08, 2019, 4:57 PM UTC

typon wrote: post #66

puzzle wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interview questions: How would a search engine distinguish between the two kinds of queries, tens of thousands of times a second? And how would one architect such a two-tiered system, particularly with an eye toward cascading failures?

Make it opt-in. Instead of requiring every search to be finished in less than 0.5 seconds, allow users to tick a box that says "Take your time" and pull indices from slow storage in that case. If I know I want something niche, I am willing to wait the extra few seconds or even a minute.

Behind the scenes, a search on Google involves at least a thousand machines.

How much extra state (internal connections, memory for partial results, etc.) would such a new search type create?

How do you deal with a new kind of hot spots now?

What if millions of people suddenly activate such an option?

What if a botnet does it?

Re: It seems that Google is forgetting the old web

#166

Post by revvx » Mon, Apr 08, 2019, 4:58 PM UTC

kickscondor wrote: post #153

revvx wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not Google's fault this time. The problem is that Blogspam is now a (legitimate) industry much bigger than Google can manage. Google Search became a playground for marketing firms to dump content made by low-paid freelancers with algorithmically chosen keywords, links and headers. It's SEO on large scale. Everything is monitored via analytics and automatically posted to Wordpress. Every time Google tweaks its al…

Well, I disagree. (Though I think your record of things is correct!) Certainly if you look at this as a bot war then Google's actions make sense: we need our bots to outsmart the 'bots' (human bots even!) that are writing blogs. But look at it another way: you have lots of humans writing - and it's all of varying quality. Why not let the humans decide what's good? The early Web was curated by humans, who kept directo…

I agree with you.

Maybe the problem is that PageRank (or whatever they call it these days) has run its course. I mean, it supposed to gauge "what humans think is good", but it's failing miserably. It's indeed time for a more curated, artisanal, web.

Re: It seems that Google is forgetting the old web

#167

Post by technotarek » Mon, Apr 08, 2019, 5:00 PM UTC

technotarek wrote: post #40

kickscondor wrote: post #17

While it's become impossible to browse the wider Web with Google, it's getting a bit easier elsewhere. A few helpful search engines: * https://millionshort.com/ * https://wiby.me/ * https://pinboard.in/search/ A recent movement to build personal Yahoo!-style directories: * https://href.cool/ (my own project) * https://indieseek.xyz/ * https://districts.neocities.org/ * https://the.dailywebthing.com/ The above resourc…

We're among those that believe there is room in the search space. We're building out our hyper local product search service city by city at https://attic.city . It's meant to fill the void with regard to smaller, non-chain stores that Google shopping seems to focus on.

Edit: ...that Google shopping seems to ignore (!)

Re: It seems that Google is forgetting the old web

#168

Post by stcredzero » Mon, Apr 08, 2019, 5:03 PM UTC

Bray writes that: “I think Google has stopped indexing the older parts of the Web. I think I can prove it. Google’s competition is doing better.”

Those who forget the past are doomed...to be marketed to again.

As Vernor Vinge noted (he popularized the notion of "The Singularity") not indexing something basically amounts to erasing it from the awareness of the majority. If you can control the past, you can control how people think about the world. If you can control the past, you can control the present. The ability to quietly erase something from popular consciousness amounts to a huge chunk of power.

There should be a concept like Net Neutrality. Perhaps there should be a search neutrality -- if you're going to index, you need to index everything.

Re: It seems that Google is forgetting the old web

#169

Post by en-us » Mon, Apr 08, 2019, 5:08 PM UTC

kickscondor wrote: post #94

en-us wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I spend a lot of my time cataloging the hidden corners of the Web and it is mostly individuals working on their personal Web projects. That sounds interesting. Do you have a list of some interesting projects that you're willing to share?

I catalog my findings on my blog: https://www.kickscondor.com/ and I have a directory of my favorites: https://href.cool/ . Thankyou for asking. If you know of any sweet links, pass them along!

Awesome, thanks for sharing!

Re: It seems that Google is forgetting the old web

#170

Post by Funes- » Mon, Apr 08, 2019, 5:10 PM UTC

From my experience I can say that the web is filled with garbage that tries to exploit whichever search engine you may be using, while also trying to exploit your own attention with flashy headlines and sensationalistic content. These two go hand in hand.

It wasn't that long ago that any Google search would return a big list of blog entries; personal, non-commercial blogs, that is. That was the case with YouTube, as well. I remember people making and uploading videos just for the sake of it. Even I did that (I had a January 2006 account), and the purpose was only one: sharing what you liked to engage in. Nothing more. I guess that's part of the long-gone, old web. When I browse the web nowadays, I feel like I am constantly being sold something, because I actually am.