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Linux Mint's Sobering Update: A Glimpse into the Personal Struggles Devs Face

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Re: Linux Mint's Sobering Update: A Glimpse into the Personal Struggles Devs Face

#11

Post by Mikeb85 »

skocznymroczny wrote: post #9
axaxs wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I worked for a while on a distro. The issue tracker is stressful for two main reasons. One, a lot of esoteric bugs that are hardware dependent. It's so frustrating to ask for help in testing to be ghosted or told 'no.' People don't seem to understand that as a small team, you don't have and won't buy all the hardware choices that exist to work on something for free. The second stressor are people being adament and pu…

> People don't seem to understand that as a small team, you don't have and won't buy all the hardware choices that exist to work on something for free. that's why there shouldn't be as many distros. With fewer distros, it would be easier to test them on various configurations. Also it would make sure any fixes for specific hardware are used more widely, rather than ending up a patch in a single distro.

I don't think there should be fewer distros, but I personally have mostly stuck to the big ones, as they generally have the fewest issues.

Re: Linux Mint's Sobering Update: A Glimpse into the Personal Struggles Devs Face

#12

Post by dessant »

> We can get demotivated, uncertain, depressed even by negative reactions or interactions, and it can lead to developers stepping away from the project, taking a break or even leaving for good.

It truly is a struggle. I have a couple of projects with moderate numbers of users, and between the "it doesn't work" private messages (not even mentioning which project) and some abusive and entitled users, I do wonder sometimes what would be the best way to protect ourselves as maintainers of open source projects.

There are of course sensible users whom I truly appreciate, though encouraging messages are easily drowned out by low quality support requests and negative interactions.

We may step away for a while or cut off communication channels in order to heal, but I don't see a real solution to this problem, other than to delegate tasks so that abuse is spread out evenly between a team of maintainers.

Re: Linux Mint's Sobering Update: A Glimpse into the Personal Struggles Devs Face

#13

Post by axaxs »

skocznymroczny wrote: post #9
axaxs wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I worked for a while on a distro. The issue tracker is stressful for two main reasons. One, a lot of esoteric bugs that are hardware dependent. It's so frustrating to ask for help in testing to be ghosted or told 'no.' People don't seem to understand that as a small team, you don't have and won't buy all the hardware choices that exist to work on something for free. The second stressor are people being adament and pu…

> People don't seem to understand that as a small team, you don't have and won't buy all the hardware choices that exist to work on something for free. that's why there shouldn't be as many distros. With fewer distros, it would be easier to test them on various configurations. Also it would make sure any fixes for specific hardware are used more widely, rather than ending up a patch in a single distro.

I see your point... but realize that 99 percent of such bugs are upstream. So it's a matter of locking packages, or adding hacky things to a shell script that runs at install time. In a lot of way, it feels at times a distro maintainer is a secretary between the end user and upstream packages, since we end up opening the bugs.

Re: Linux Mint's Sobering Update: A Glimpse into the Personal Struggles Devs Face

#15

Post by rorykoehler »

dessant wrote: post #12

> We can get demotivated, uncertain, depressed even by negative reactions or interactions, and it can lead to developers stepping away from the project, taking a break or even leaving for good. It truly is a struggle. I have a couple of projects with moderate numbers of users, and between the "it doesn't work" private messages (not even mentioning which project) and some abusive and entitled users, I do wonder someti…

Add a don't be a dick clause to the license and revoke the keys of anyone who is.

Re: Linux Mint's Sobering Update: A Glimpse into the Personal Struggles Devs Face

#16

Post by TheCondor »

swozey wrote: post #3

I can't even imagine the stress from public comments that comes from working on an open source operating system. I don't use Mint but I'm hugely sympathetic to the devs who have to deal with the backlash from, of all things, a logo and website design change that they likely had little to no involvement with.

Opensource anything...

It’s not completely thankless, but the thanks seem to be mostly direct and private and then you face public ridicule for errors, bugs, missteps or just when people have different aesthetics or taste and don’t like your project. There are so many “behind the scenes” sorts of projects too, stuff that matters and isn’t quite as visible to the common end user.

I think of OpenSSL, the big security hole got more marketing and PR than the project ever did with “heart bleed.” Then some of the comments during the libressl review were very harsh. They did their thing in anonymity for decades, got used by everything and then took a public beating; clearly it depends on where the developers’ hearts are when that happened, maybe it wasn't so bad, it felt bad to watch.

With something like mint, just about everything is subjective. There are going to be a lot of haters just because of opinion.

Re: Linux Mint's Sobering Update: A Glimpse into the Personal Struggles Devs Face

#17

Post by bregma »

swozey wrote: post #3

I can't even imagine the stress from public comments that comes from working on an open source operating system. I don't use Mint but I'm hugely sympathetic to the devs who have to deal with the backlash from, of all things, a logo and website design change that they likely had little to no involvement with.

I worked as a front line developer at a major Linux distro known for making some unpopular decisions. I came to the position knowing full well how 10% of all people out there are loudmouth asscracks . People without experience or inside knowledge who think they know better than those with, and expect to have only their own personal demands met at the expense of everyone else probably because they are getting something for free.

As long as he approaches the job knowing he is going to see some of the most wretched examples of scum and villainy, the dude can abide with grace. Just don't take it personally.

Re: Linux Mint's Sobering Update: A Glimpse into the Personal Struggles Devs Face

#18

Post by Townley »

> Beyond that, keep in mind that while donations keep Linux Mint and other distributions afloat, the occasional message of appreciation can be encouraging, and at times personally invaluable.

Exactly. This issue isn't just something that "maintainers deal with"; it's also something that "users can help with".

The next time you install a library that makes your life easier, write someone an email. Star the project on GitHub. Open up a "TODO: Keep Being Awesome" ticket where others can show their gratitude.

Even if you don't have the skills or bandwidth to contribute to a project's development, you can contribute to its morale.

Re: Linux Mint's Sobering Update: A Glimpse into the Personal Struggles Devs Face

#19

Post by Insanity »

z2 wrote: post #8
doktrin wrote: post #4

> Remember that these folks are pouring all of their energy into a free product, and remember that they're sensitive to how you perceive it. I hope I live to see the day when the internet stops bringing out the worst in us. The Linux community might not be as vitriolic as cesspools like gaming, but some days it really isn't that far off.

As someone who has published a free app for fun, I've learned that due to any mix of entitlement and ignorance, anything you put out there can make some people emotionally angry. I'm still learning how to move on and accept that this is OK, for them and for me.

Sorry you had to go through that!

I tend to ignore the negative feedback, and reply to the postive feedback (with a simple thank you or something of the likes).

If you did something for fun, it doesn't really matter what people think. Just keep doing stuff for fun, and kudos for putting it out there for others to enjoy! Even if you get some people who don't like it, remember you did not do it for them :-)

Re: Linux Mint's Sobering Update: A Glimpse into the Personal Struggles Devs Face

#20

Post by dessant »

rorykoehler wrote: post #15
dessant wrote: post #12

> We can get demotivated, uncertain, depressed even by negative reactions or interactions, and it can lead to developers stepping away from the project, taking a break or even leaving for good. It truly is a struggle. I have a couple of projects with moderate numbers of users, and between the "it doesn't work" private messages (not even mentioning which project) and some abusive and entitled users, I do wonder someti…

Add a don't be a dick clause to the license and revoke the keys of anyone who is.

That can be cathartic, but normalizing hostility towards users will ultimately hurt both you and your project. There are no winners in this context once you decide to draw your weapon.
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