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Codecademy vs. the BBC Micro

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Re: Codecademy vs. the BBC Micro

#11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We're about the same age. My primary school also had a BBC Micro on a trolley. We didn't get to use it much, I guess because our teacher wasn't interested in it. When I was ~10, my parents spent £129.99 (a lot of money for them at the time) to buy me an Acorn Electron (a cut down version of the BBC Micro). One thing that was frustrating for me at the time is that I had no one to answer questions. For example, I was w…

The Acorn was my first programming computer at school - I didn't know it was from BBC Micro lineage! We were pretty lucky to have about 20 of them. I did NOT make enough use of this resource as a teenager, to my adult self's chagrin. This was largely because as a teenage girl, the last thing that was gonna happen was spending my lunch hours in the computer room where boys were playing adventure games. Lame. (Future m…

Acorn was the manufacturer rather than the model.

So the Acorn logo was on the back of the BBC computers, the Electron and on later Archimedes lines.

Re: Codecademy vs. the BBC Micro

#12
In the U.S. as a kid, they aired some of these programs. On one episode, they showed a computer playing tic-tac-toe (naughts and crosses) and claimed that it learned as it went. To this day, I don't know how it did that - maybe building a simple game tree? Still impressive. I always wanted one, but could afford only the TS-1000 (ZX81 but black). I was like 12.

Re: Codecademy vs. the BBC Micro

#13

In the U.S. as a kid, they aired some of these programs. On one episode, they showed a computer playing tic-tac-toe (naughts and crosses) and claimed that it learned as it went. To this day, I don't know how it did that - maybe building a simple game tree? Still impressive. I always wanted one, but could afford only the TS-1000 (ZX81 but black). I was like 12.

I did this as a kid in the 1980s. :) If you exploit the symmetry, so that there are only 3 initial moves (center, corner and edge) its manageable to do by hand. Don't even need a computer.

And here's an old Scientific American article about a device that learns a simplified subset of chess called Hexapawn. It's not a computer, but about 25 matchboxes. :)

https://www.gwern.net/docs/rl/1991-gardner-ch8amatchboxgamel...

Re: Codecademy vs. the BBC Micro

#14
post #2

There's a lot of us mid-forties IT staff who owe our careers to the BBC Micro and accompanying TV programmes. It would come as a huge surprise to today's kids but my school had just one computer (a BBC Micro, of course) which was wheeled on a trolley from one classroom to the next. We'd all take turns, usually in groups of three or four, to run whatever educational game was related to the work we were doing (usually…

> There's a lot of us mid-forties IT staff who owe our careers to the BBC Micro

Only just in 40s here so I was a bit late for the TV programs, but the Acorn computers (Micros and Master Series on trollies in school, and an Electron then later a Master at home) are essentially why I've ended up as a senior-developer-come-DBA.

A large part of that is BBC Basic. Compared to anything else available at home at the time it was magical. Instantly accessible (10 PRINT "Expletive" 20 GOTO 10), had proper sub-procedures & functions and long identifier names (so you could create usefully structured code), build-in multi-pass assembler for when you started to need/want lower level access, many of BASIC's parts could be accessed in a documented manner from assembled code too and not just those where it was providing a thin wrapper around other ROM functions, ...

That and many type-in examples in magazines of the time to try, learn from and modify: from "frivolous" one-liners (usually producing something pretty on screen), through little "ten liner" games and other demos, to much larger projects. Heck, they fuelled some of my interest in mathematics too as those examples sometimes explored concepts such as fractals, strange attractors, 3D transforms, and so on, while making the pretty display (the explanations were fairly superficial, but usually had the right keywords for me to go lookup more detail in the library when my interest was awoken).

Re: Codecademy vs. the BBC Micro

#16
When a friend attempted to teach basic programming to his kids, I realized we're in trouble (for some definition of trouble, see below).

First of all, the article is right in opining that the pathways to computer literacy in general, and programming in particular, are not really all that accessible anymore. The problem becomes even worse due to the sheer number of "teaching" tools available. My friend had trouble even finding the right setting. It would have to be a device or an environment that seems relevant and recognizable to the kid, yet at the same time it must be approachable, well documented, didactically meaningful, and entertaining in a way that would motivate someone who could just play any game instead of making one.

Second, being a tech-illiterate kid today is not a pain point anymore. Devices, apps, and entertainment media are easy enough for anybody to use. Kids are, somewhat reasonably, asking why they should spend any energy on this, to what end?

At first I thought this was a problem. One of my friend's kids quit before the effort started essentially saying "this seems boring, why do I need this?" and the other quit after the first introduction with "nah, I'd rather do something else". I think this is actually fine. It has always been the case that being interested in computers came easier to social outcasts, and kids who had a genuine internal motivation towards technology. The web start up bubble may have skewed this perception for a time, because suddenly there was a lot of money accessible even for people with at best a passing interest in programming. But those days are petering out.

Computing never had a broad appeal, except during short fads. I don't think we need more people in computing and programming. If anything, we need less, because the job market for programmers is likely not going to get better.

Finally, I question whether there is an upside to teaching computing to kids who don't feel a connection to it. I actually agree with my friend's kids here: for what? Using software is as easy and productive as never before. Yes, being a programmer, I see the glaring issues in today's software, but if we're honest we have gained a lot more than we lost in terms of what the "unskilled" user can do.

Re: Codecademy vs. the BBC Micro

#17
post #9

BBC Basic was a really good Basic. Its low level routines (for floating point, for example) were available at certain addresses so you could call them from assembly. And since you could mix assembly into Basic also, it gave you a nice path from simple programs to really making the most of the machine. I find it astonishing how well thought out this machine was.

Yes it really was well thought out. Another good example is the 'tube' interface for second processors. Enthusiasts have recently put this to use to interface with a Raspberry Pi which can emulate various processors from back in the day at unheard-of speeds, and also provides a modern native ARM coprocessor. The neat thing is that this all works with no changes to the BBC and no special software; you just use the operating system routines as usual on code running on the second processor and it all just works. Not bad for a system designed in 1981.

https://github.com/hoglet67/PiTubeDirect/wiki

Re: Codecademy vs. the BBC Micro

#18
post #2

There's a lot of us mid-forties IT staff who owe our careers to the BBC Micro and accompanying TV programmes. It would come as a huge surprise to today's kids but my school had just one computer (a BBC Micro, of course) which was wheeled on a trolley from one classroom to the next. We'd all take turns, usually in groups of three or four, to run whatever educational game was related to the work we were doing (usually…

Yes! The BBC Micro came out just before I started primary school. Initially our school (200-300 pupils) had one, on a trolley, with a concept keyboard too ( http://www.beebmaster.co.uk/8bitadd/Concept.html ).

By the time I left primary school, we had three or four!

In primary one, I remember some very simple `cat and mouse' game.

Later on, a text adventure game, possibly something to do with a frog. And then Granny's Garden, and The Flowers of Crystal.

At some point, I got permission to basically mess around on one during some lunchtimes.

There is so much more I could say!

Re: Codecademy vs. the BBC Micro

#19
The computer I grew up with was the BBC's little brother, the Acorn Electron. Lovely little thing. Only 32 kB of RAM, but it had a special port at the back where basically the motherboard itself could be extended, so there were official and unofficial extensions that let you extend this little computer-in-a-keyboard to a massive desk-filling beast with a whopping 224 kB of ROM (though still only 32 kB of RAM). It had no power switch, so you had to use the wall plug to turn it on or off, and with all this stuff added it had become so unstable you often had to try a couple of times before it would boot without hanging.

Fun times.

Re: Codecademy vs. the BBC Micro

#20
post #16

When a friend attempted to teach basic programming to his kids, I realized we're in trouble (for some definition of trouble, see below). First of all, the article is right in opining that the pathways to computer literacy in general, and programming in particular, are not really all that accessible anymore. The problem becomes even worse due to the sheer number of "teaching" tools available. My friend had trouble eve…

The short answer to "why do I need this" is that there a lot of good paying jobs in using programs to manipulate data, from software engineering to doing analysis in Excel. Maybe those kids are too young for that to be relevant, but that's also the best time to start learning.
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