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I Lied When I Said We Did Everything We Could

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Re: I Lied When I Said We Did Everything We Could

#251

Post by pdonis »

diminoten wrote: post #226
pdonis wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry, you can't have it both ways. Opinions are opinions: nobody knows for sure which ones are right or wrong. IMO you should retract your accusation of "lie" since you have admitted you were just stating your opinion. Your opinion might not agree with someone else's opinion, but that doesn't justify you accusing them of lying.

Sorry, but I can have it this way, and it's not "both" ways, it's just one way. Opinions can be false, and it's a lie to say that death is peace. Rudimentary philosophy will help you understand this conversation, as it covers fairly extensively the truth/false of beliefs, and the very nature of what truth is. I recommend you spend some time looking into it before you feign outrage over an unrelated topic to the one i…

> it's a lie to say that death is peace

No, it's your opinion that death is not peace. "Peace" is not a word with a single fixed meaning, so you have no basis for saying that other people are lying when they express the opinion that death is peace. All you can say is that your opinion disagrees with theirs.

> Rudimentary philosophy will help you understand this conversation, as it covers fairly extensively the truth/false of beliefs, and the very nature of what truth is. I recommend you spend some time looking into it

Sorry, not buying it. Blowing smoke won't change the fact that you're making an unjustified accusation of lying.

Re: I Lied When I Said We Did Everything We Could

#252

Post by pdonis »

diminoten wrote: post #224
chmod775 wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Something can be an opinion and a lie by definition. Where opinion means "belief held", that's an obvious oxymoron. > Also, I don't care if I insult people by stating facts, including, "Your opinion is wrong/a lie." Getting upset about a fact is yelling at a cloud. Let me quote yourself at you: > Stop trying to interpret my opinions as facts. Are you seriously fooled into thinking what I'm saying here is even argua…

Epistemologically, there can be false beliefs, so no it is not an oxymoron, obvious or otherwise. Basic philosophy. You're right, this will go nowhere because you're trying to have a semantics argument while also being wrong about the semantics you're trying to correct. And again, I don't care if you find me to be rude. Bringing it up is distracting from the larger conversation, about how we're being sold a bill of g…

> we're being sold a bill of goods by doctors about "peaceful death" because it makes their lives easier to think about, at the cost of giving up earlier on patients

At last, an actual substantive statement. But unfortunately, it's still your opinion.

I have no problem at all with you choosing to fight to the last and continuing to seek treatments right to the end even if you are diagnosed with a terminal illness where all known treatments have slim to no chance of success. But that's your choice, and other people might choose differently. And the problem with accusing people of lying simply because they don't share your opinion and would make a different choice from yours isn't that it's rude (though it is); it's that it's not justified.

Re: I Lied When I Said We Did Everything We Could

#253

Post by learc83 »

dunnevens wrote: post #230
learc83 wrote: post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was also raised Southern Baptist (though I’m a liberal mainline protestant now) and my dad was an assistant pastor/choir director for most of my childhood. I couldn’t disagree with many aspects of Southern Baptist theology and doctrine more, but this was not my experience at all. Sure people prayed for sick family members, but the focus was always more on repenting and being reunited in heaven than it was on stayin…

We apparently had vastly different experiences within the same denomination. Prayers were almost always for healing. Repentence almost never came into it as the subject of the prayers was usually "saved". Nor were the prayers for being reunited in heaven because that was assumed to be a given. Feeding into all of this were the half-baked stories from the pulpit of healing. Of some miraculous last minute renewal of he…

>Prayers were almost always for healing. Repentence almost never came into it as the subject of the prayers was usually "saved". Nor were the prayers for being reunited in heaven because that was assumed to be a given.

I didn't mean the focus of prayers. I meant the overall focus--sermons, Sunday school etc...

>Feeding into all of this were the half-baked stories from the pulpit of healing. Of some miraculous last minute renewal of health. Always the result of praying, fasting, etc.

I've heard thousands of hours of sermons in multiple SBC churches from dozens of pastors, and I've been to multiple conventions as a delegate. While I have heard stories about miraculous recoveries from the pulpit, they were fairly rare and not an important focus.

The focus on miraculous healing sounds more like a charismatic church than an average SBC church.

Now as you said, there is a lot of variation among SBC churches. It sounds like the churches you were involved in had a much more of a charismatic bent than was common.

Re: I Lied When I Said We Did Everything We Could

#254

Post by learc83 »

GalacticDomin8r wrote: post #217
learc83 wrote: post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Think back to the Terri Schiavo case. While she was apparently Catholic, the sentiment was the same. Her family believed that she was going to be healed by God (or Jesus, either one) and would make a full recovery. That's a mischaracterization of what happened. They had several arguments. 1. They believed that she wasn't actually in a persistent vegetative state, but that she was still conscious and could understand…

> It’s definitely not evidence of wide scale Christian refusal to accept death. True if you are speaking only of the events you described. However you left out the national debate(and I use that word loosely) over the matter. That was evidence of wide scale Christian refusal to accept death. It took the typical form of the extremists appealing to and living under the shield of the larger group of religious believers…

The national debate was mostly pro-life groups trying to spin the situation for political gain.

And even among those groups, I don't remember it being a common argument that she should live because God would miraculously heal her.

The argument was that (they believed) she was still conscious and that her life was still worth living.

Re: I Lied When I Said We Did Everything We Could

#255

Post by learc83 »

sagebird wrote: post #151
saagarjha wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

God gives man the ability to make tools that can both prolong their life and end it prematurely. Is there anything special about the latter than makes it “forbidden”?

I don’t think there is some sort of list of forbidden tools. Though Wikipedia says that Protestants think you go to hell if you commit suicide: Psalm 139:8 ("If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.") has often been discussed in the context of the fate of those who commit suicide

As another poster said this is Catholic doctrine. I'll go further than they did and say that this is uncommon amongst Protestant churches.

Re: I Lied When I Said We Did Everything We Could

#256

Post by ryan-allen »

jungletime wrote: post #233

My Dad had a cardiac arrest at 70. And consequently deprived of oxygen for 10+ minutes. My Mom did all she could with chest pumps waiting for paramedics. This kept him alive so he made it to hospital. When I saw my Dad, a few hours later, his eyes were glazed over, pupils dilated, unable to make sort of recognizable sound, just soft nightmarish screams, and stretching out his arms like he wanted to get away. I though…

Wow! Almost the exact same thing happened to my Dad. Luckily some big burly removalists witnessed it, and they knew CPR and got to work.

He was out for (if I recall) 27 minutes. It was 4 days of intensive care without us knowing if he would have any brain function, he made a full recovery.

He was back at work in a few weeks, and he's doing great (albeit with a pacemaker).

Re: I Lied When I Said We Did Everything We Could

#258

Post by BenMorganIO »

I remember being 10 and seeing my dog Moglee crawl up a 150m driveway to see his family after being hit by a truck. I remember the blood from his mouth and how much he wanted to be with his family. It was 2 days after Christmas.

Recently my old cat Jackie passed away. The moment I saw her not pee in the litter box but instead leave tiny droplets on the floor, I knew it was time to start planning for what the next few hours were going to be like. She was deaf, blind, failed kidney, two times underweight, and a tumor in her mouth. Her inability to eat or relieve herself had peaked. In the next four hours she was euthanized.

There's many instances throughout life that you know there's nothing you can do.

This doctor was right, your everything isn't always to spend moments with doctors. Sometimes it's to make the final moments worth it. I wasn't with Moglee. No one was. I was with Jackie, but the vet talked me out of getting antibiotics so she could eat instead of starving to death.

Re: I Lied When I Said We Did Everything We Could

#259

Post by ars »

mikeash wrote: post #150
djakjxnanjak wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think ultimately there’s no good answer to this line of questioning, because an omnipotent god can make whatever he wants happen regardless of what humans do. Claims that someone is thwarting or enabling God’s will are subjective and religious leaders can deploy them however they wish.

Reminds me of people who say that their favorite President was chosen by God. I always want to ask them if that means the ones they don’t like are also chosen by God, and if not, how they can tell which ones are and which ones aren’t.

Yes it means the ones they didn't like were also chosen by God, and it means they have mistake in their belief of what God wants.

It's no different from somebody wanting their loved one to live, and God disagreeing and the person passes away.

So next time you hear that reinterpret it as "wow I must be doing something right if God wants the same thing I want".

Re: I Lied When I Said We Did Everything We Could

#260

Post by ars »

IgorPartola wrote: post #192
djakjxnanjak wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think ultimately there’s no good answer to this line of questioning, because an omnipotent god can make whatever he wants happen regardless of what humans do. Claims that someone is thwarting or enabling God’s will are subjective and religious leaders can deploy them however they wish.

He could even create a rock he himself could not lift. Oh wait...

The answer to that is the concept of "can't" does not exist for God.

Same as how the concept of alphabet does not apply to a number, or how you can't divide by zero.

It's simply not a concept that can be applied.

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