Facebook are 'morally bankrupt liars' says New Zealand's privacy commissioner • Hacker News Board

Re: Facebook are 'morally bankrupt liars' says New Zealand's privacy commissioner

#91

Post by fapjacks » Mon, Apr 08, 2019, 3:50 AM UTC

m0zg wrote: post #77

HNthrow22 wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Facebook has no clue what kind of stuff gets posted on their platform, and their AI isn't powerful enough to detect it. The idea that Facebook is causing/enabling such behaviors is ridiculous. I contend as a society we should hold these massive tech orgs (who have more power than most governments) to the standard of moderating the content that's posted to their platforms. They have the money and profits to hire hum…

What you're asking for also leads to total, Chinese-style censorship, as the government finds more and more content on these network it doesn't particularly like and therefore considers "extremist". Fun fact: Russia has recently passed a set of laws under which you can go to jail for simply "disrespecting" a government official. This "disrespect" can take the form, for example, of pointing out that their spending is…

The amount of vocal support for censorship in here is frankly unbelievable, bordering on comically absurd.

Re: Facebook are 'morally bankrupt liars' says New Zealand's privacy commissioner

#92

Post by kerng » Mon, Apr 08, 2019, 3:50 AM UTC

mrep wrote: post #70

maksimum wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Facebook has no clue what kind of stuff gets posted on their platform, and their AI isn't powerful enough to detect it. Almost certainly Facebook's ML can identify the themes of almost all content on their platform with high accuracy. That's a pretty easy problem at their scale.

Google pretty much undeniably has the best ML people in the world and I see nonstop hate at YouTube for their automated filters false-positives so I don't think it is an easy problem.

Why would AI be able to stop any of this? I doubt even humans could make the right decisions, why would computer be able to?

The usage of AI as a magic silver bullet always frustrates me.

Re: Facebook are 'morally bankrupt liars' says New Zealand's privacy commissioner

#93

Post by chrisseaton » Mon, Apr 08, 2019, 3:51 AM UTC

HNthrow22 wrote: post #56

acdc4life wrote: post #35

"[They] allow the live streaming of suicides, rapes, and murders, continue to host and publish the mosque attack video, allow advertisers to target ‘Jew haters’ and other hateful market segments, and refuse to accept any responsibility for any content or harm." I stopped reading after this point. Facebook has no clue what kind of stuff gets posted on their platform, and their AI isn't powerful enough to detect it. Th…

> Facebook has no clue what kind of stuff gets posted on their platform, and their AI isn't powerful enough to detect it. The idea that Facebook is causing/enabling such behaviors is ridiculous. I contend as a society we should hold these massive tech orgs (who have more power than most governments) to the standard of moderating the content that's posted to their platforms. They have the money and profits to hire hum…

> They have the money and profits to hire human moderators

How many people do you think it would take to proactively moderate all the video uploaded to YouTube? Back in 2017 it was apparently 300 hours a minute. Do the Fermi estimate on that. That's not a productive use of humanity.

Re: Facebook are 'morally bankrupt liars' says New Zealand's privacy commissioner

#94

Post by o10449366 » Mon, Apr 08, 2019, 3:51 AM UTC

HNthrow22 wrote: post #56

acdc4life wrote: post #35

"[They] allow the live streaming of suicides, rapes, and murders, continue to host and publish the mosque attack video, allow advertisers to target ‘Jew haters’ and other hateful market segments, and refuse to accept any responsibility for any content or harm." I stopped reading after this point. Facebook has no clue what kind of stuff gets posted on their platform, and their AI isn't powerful enough to detect it. Th…

> Facebook has no clue what kind of stuff gets posted on their platform, and their AI isn't powerful enough to detect it. The idea that Facebook is causing/enabling such behaviors is ridiculous. I contend as a society we should hold these massive tech orgs (who have more power than most governments) to the standard of moderating the content that's posted to their platforms. They have the money and profits to hire hum…

Why are you implying that Facebook isn't actively moderating their platforms or that governments would be able to do a better job? Facebook has hired thousands of human moderators in the past few years, significantly more than Google and Twitter. They've also invested significantly in improving their AI detection systems. That doesn't mean there isn't work to do still, but you're insinuating that they aren't actively moderating their platforms and that simply isn't true. Furthermore, the idea that harsh penalties and regulations are going to prevent psychopaths from broadcasting their killing spree is ridiculous. Facebook doesn't need an incentive to prevent mass shootings from being broadcast on its platform, and punishing them with monetary fines or regulations would only hurt their ability to do so.

Re: Facebook are 'morally bankrupt liars' says New Zealand's privacy commissioner

#95

Post by chrisseaton » Mon, Apr 08, 2019, 3:52 AM UTC

esalman wrote: post #85

acdc4life wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

None of these tech companies have the ability to do that. What you are suggesting would mean the death of every social media company.

If a car manufacturer is faced with a problem so that it loses the ability to prevent accidents, would you let that manufacturer continue its business?

> it loses the ability to prevent accidents

Car manufacturers can't prevent accidents - what do you mean?

Re: Facebook are 'morally bankrupt liars' says New Zealand's privacy commissioner

#96

Post by tootahe45 » Mon, Apr 08, 2019, 3:53 AM UTC

I'm pretty embarrassed to be kiwi right now with our PM & multiple ex-PMs showing zero understanding of so many of these issues, yet they're still very willing to put forward their opinions. They hijacked the gun debate to pass laws with zero public input, people cheered because they weren't part of the 3% who owned guns. Now the govt is turning its ugly head toward censorship and taking away our privacy.

Re: Facebook are 'morally bankrupt liars' says New Zealand's privacy commissioner

#97

Post by blue6249 » Mon, Apr 08, 2019, 3:54 AM UTC

esalman wrote: post #85

acdc4life wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

None of these tech companies have the ability to do that. What you are suggesting would mean the death of every social media company.

If a car manufacturer is faced with a problem so that it loses the ability to prevent accidents, would you let that manufacturer continue its business?

We do allow car companies to continue to build cars that cannot prevent accidents. Even beyond preventing accidents we as a society also allow the car companies to build cars with varying levels of safety and have a rating system for them.

Re: Facebook are 'morally bankrupt liars' says New Zealand's privacy commissioner

#98

Post by xupybd » Mon, Apr 08, 2019, 3:55 AM UTC

ineedasername wrote: post #41

xupybd wrote: post #6

I'm a New Zealander. I think our privacy commissioner is so totally wrong here. It's a hard technical problem to solve. It's an even harder political problem to solve. Automatic censorship of live feeds, how do you do that? Automatic take downs of videos doctored to avoid being removed, how to do you do that? Then if you have these automatic systems in place how do you avoid getting accused of censoring everyone? I d…

I agree these are hard problems to solve, and don't fault facebook for not having come up with a solution. I still think the "morally bankrupt liars" label isn't too far off the mark though. All of the negative stories that have emerged this past year, their denials and ham-handed cover ups, and perhaps finally the fact that they are actually asking some people to give them passwords for 3rd party services... I can't…

You are correct, but this is one of the few cases where it's unjustified. We have moved to online discourse more and more. Do we really want super powerful AI and armies of moderators combing through all of that?

Re: Facebook are 'morally bankrupt liars' says New Zealand's privacy commissioner

#99

Post by DSingularity » Mon, Apr 08, 2019, 3:56 AM UTC

acdc4life wrote: post #35

"[They] allow the live streaming of suicides, rapes, and murders, continue to host and publish the mosque attack video, allow advertisers to target ‘Jew haters’ and other hateful market segments, and refuse to accept any responsibility for any content or harm." I stopped reading after this point. Facebook has no clue what kind of stuff gets posted on their platform, and their AI isn't powerful enough to detect it. Th…

Why is it sensationalism to demand accountability? Why can’t we just say something as simple as “hey Zuck, Every time someone is murdered live on FB you owe society 50 million”. Is that so horrible?

Re: Facebook are 'morally bankrupt liars' says New Zealand's privacy commissioner

#100

Post by NeedMoreTea » Mon, Apr 08, 2019, 3:57 AM UTC

acdc4life wrote: post #69

HNthrow22 wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Facebook has no clue what kind of stuff gets posted on their platform, and their AI isn't powerful enough to detect it. The idea that Facebook is causing/enabling such behaviors is ridiculous. I contend as a society we should hold these massive tech orgs (who have more power than most governments) to the standard of moderating the content that's posted to their platforms. They have the money and profits to hire hum…

None of these tech companies have the ability to do that. What you are suggesting would mean the death of every social media company.

If you don't have the ability to control your premises, or employ enough security, perhaps you should not be permitted to operate those premises. Unsafe clubs get closed down.

They - or any other social media company - don't have a right to exist. If societies around the world conclude they do more harm than good as they currently operate, it's perfectly reasonable to require them to moderate adequately. If they cannot they can close, or withdraw from that region, and someone else may wish to try. Facebook could employ thousands more to moderate and supervise - without destroying their ability to make profit. Pretending the problems don't exist, as all the platforms have done so far, looks like it's not going to be tenable for much longer.

Not only am I fine with that, I think it long overdue.