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I Lied When I Said We Did Everything We Could

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Re: I Lied When I Said We Did Everything We Could

#241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I grew up in a conservative, Protestant family and I might be able to shed a little bit of light on this. A few points, simply based on the environment I grew up in, which means of course this is just one perspective on just one religious denomination - I won't provide more caveats than that: - Christians take the afterlife very seriously. One must be judged by God. Regardless of how confident you are in your final d…

To your second bullet, I think those beliefs are much more prevalent in so-called Evangelical denominations, and less so in mainline Protestant denominations. As a Lutheran, for example, the notion that any Christian would be relegated to hell is basically unthinkable, and there's very little emphasis placed on it otherwise.

Indeed, we Lutherans take comfort in Baptism and Christ's saving work.

Re: I Lied When I Said We Did Everything We Could

#242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel like that is a crappy example to shove in people's faces. I guarantee you there is a nonzero amount of people who did that on 9/11 who could have made it down safely and enjoyed the rest of their lives. Actually it's a perfect example of the other kind of suicide, not due to permanent illness so much as temporary circumstances that could be resolved and lead to the person not wanting to do that. That is someth…

If you down voted this please explain your position to enlighten others. Otherwise I am just going to assume you did so out of poor life experience. Suicidal people often need and can use help, after which they can return to not being suicidal. Gp's 9/11 reference was also kind of nonsensical, and I say that as someone who was in the DC area at that time.

The North Tower of the World Trade Center was engulfed in flames above the 93rd floor and suffered severe structural damage, cutting off all possible routes of escape. At least 1,300 people were trapped above this point; none of them survived. Even if the towers had not collapsed, these people would almost certainly have died from smoke inhalation due to the difficulty of firefighting and the impossibility of rescue.

The South Tower was struck more obliquely leaving one intact stairwell, but this was difficult to locate and descend due to the huge quantities of thick, black, choking smoke. At least 600 people were unable to find an escape route before the tower collapsed. Most of these people would have likely died of smoke inhalation if the tower had not collapsed.

My reference to 9/11 was, in my opinion, entirely apposite. On that day, nearly 2,000 people were faced with no choice other than the manner of their death. Around 200 people chose to jump.

https://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/sept11/2002-09-02-jumpe...

Re: I Lied When I Said We Did Everything We Could

#243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>American scientific optimism of the 50s and 60s Sam Altman says he “fully expects” his brain to be uploaded to the cloud someday[0]. Is it any different this time, or do humans always delude ourselves about our mortality? [0] https://www.technologyreview.com/s/610456/a-startup-is-pitch...

I think it's cyclical, and it's a matter of degree. I don't think very many people today believe that they will be able to upload their brains.

I wonder how many of us believe that heart disease and cancer will be gone by the time we're old?

Re: I Lied When I Said We Did Everything We Could

#244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

CPR is brutal, both for the person receiving it and the person providing it. You crack the person's ribs and end up mushifying their chest if you persist in doing CPR too long. The other thing is without an AED (a defibrillator) the success rate of CPR is quite low, one physician I know equated it to buying time for the brain, as he had never seen CPR alone bring someone back.

Obviously everyone is different, but I have never thought of CPR as "brutal" for the provider. Exhausting, certainly, but not brutal.

For the provider, this was primarily a reference to the potential emotional rollercoaster of CPR (depending on how empathetic you are).

Re: I Lied When I Said We Did Everything We Could

#245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you down voted this please explain your position to enlighten others. Otherwise I am just going to assume you did so out of poor life experience. Suicidal people often need and can use help, after which they can return to not being suicidal. Gp's 9/11 reference was also kind of nonsensical, and I say that as someone who was in the DC area at that time.

The North Tower of the World Trade Center was engulfed in flames above the 93rd floor and suffered severe structural damage, cutting off all possible routes of escape. At least 1,300 people were trapped above this point; none of them survived. Even if the towers had not collapsed, these people would almost certainly have died from smoke inhalation due to the difficulty of firefighting and the impossibility of rescue.…

This is much more detailed than your original statement. Thank you.

I still think the number is likely nonzero (a word I chose to indicate it may not be a high number but it is not zero) and my earlier point is reenforced: they were forced into it by circumstance, and would have taken another path had it been on offer.

It was most certainly not a "peaceful death".

Edit: I will be honest, some of my reaction came emotionally from offense at the implication that theirs was somehow a "peaceful death" (your words). The USA Today piece you cited says it was officially called "homicide". That is accurate. Assisted suicide is a totally different thing.

Re: I Lied When I Said We Did Everything We Could

#246
post #10
post #2

Wonderful article. This is a not-uncommon situation in end of life care. It's difficult for a family to accept a tragedy like this, a loved young woman dying in the prime of her life from something untreatable. The families often are in almost some sort of denial (understandably, I'm saying that without judgment) and demand that everything be tried, even when it's futile and ends up making the situation worse like in…

> The families often are in almost some sort of denial It was like pulling teeth to try to get doctors to tell me anything realistic. I don't get the impression that anyone in the medical community is trying to change this. Unlike my other family members, I had seen this person once a month obviously deteriorating in line with what every prognosis and statistic would say. My other family members were there every day…

Sorry you had a rough time getting information from your doctors.

> I don't get the impression that anyone in the medical community is trying to change this.

This is, in my experience, completely wrong.

Re: I Lied When I Said We Did Everything We Could

#247
post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A very close relative of mine got a similar massive stroke when he was around 60 that also hit the language center. Even if I was quite young I remember that moment of frustration in the hospital when when he could not talk with either of us. The doctor explained he would unlikely survive the night, and even if he did he would not be able to leave the hospital bed. His daughter did the same however what the person in…

My father had a massive stroke one morning in 2002 as he was getting ready to go play tennis. In the hospital he had severe brain swelling and was clearly in tremendous pain. His wife — his second wife, not my mother, and roughly a dozen years younger than he was — was not ready to let him go, despite his pleas that he be allowed to die. She fought heroically with the hospital staff, getting them to do various things…

"He lived another two and a half years or so, but he was pretty miserable the whole time."

This was no doubt difficult on him. It must have been tough on the rest of the family members as well. Lives and careers sometimes go for a toss while taking care of loved ones who become disabled. Because you love them, you want to take care of them.

Re: I Lied When I Said We Did Everything We Could

#248
post #183

The interesting thing to me is that doctors die very differently from the rest of us. They’re far more likely to setup structures to avoid coding later in their life or when they’re dying.

I'm really curious about this, do you have more about it? It's almost like "what is the best way to go?" and people that are around it all day long probably have a decent idea of what they want

One article about it: "How doctor's die"

https://www.rd.com/health/conditions/how-doctors-choose-to-d...

Re: I Lied When I Said We Did Everything We Could

#249
post #142

I lost my dad recently (he was 84 and lived a wonderful and healthy life, which I consider a huge win for him). He had a terribly bad stroke that left him very much alive, but without the ability to speak, read, or write. He was a professional book reviewer and writer for much of his life, and continued to read, write, and think with voracity up until the minute before his stroke (he was setting up his Series 4 Apple…

A similar thing happened to my grandfather before he passed. There was a bit of a conflict within the family as to whether to let him go peacefully or to try and keep him alive, but we ended up choosing to give him palliative care.

Personally, it was a mercy to see him die, it's strange to say but I was happy when he finally passed. He was a shell of a man in his final weeks, most his mind was gone after a series of strokes and he was being fed through a tube. He was alive in a technical sense, but he most certainly wasn't living.

Re: I Lied When I Said We Did Everything We Could

#250
post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't care if I insult people by stating facts, including, "Your opinion is wrong/a lie." You can't know their opinion is wrong, because you've already admitted that's just your opinion. It's not a fact. Your opinions are not facts.

That's not how opinions work at all. An opinion can be true or false, justified or not. I'm not countering anyone's opinion with my own opinion, I'm pointing out facts that disprove those opinions, and then offering my own alternative opinion that isn't proven wrong.

> I'm pointing out facts that disprove those opinions

You have pointed out no fact that justifies your accusation of lying.

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