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I Lied When I Said We Did Everything We Could

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Re: I Lied When I Said We Did Everything We Could

#61

Post by maxxxxx »

diminoten wrote: post #57
macintux wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I want to go out as a result of a series of violent mistakes trying to save my life. The problem is that excruciating pain is only obviously better than death if there’s something positive at the end of it. Otherwise it’s comparable to being tortured 24 hours a day for the rest of your life.

Sorry, but excruciating pain is always better than death, because death is eternal nothingness. At least excruciating pain is something.

Have you seen someone in excruciating pain for a long time without hope for improvement or experienced it yourself? It's really easy to talk tough while you are healthy but your opinion may change once you are in that situation.

From what I have seen I would prefer to go out in dignity at my own will instead of being an experiment of the medical machine. Others may feel different and I think both paths should be available.

Re: I Lied When I Said We Did Everything We Could

#62

Post by lolc »

diminoten wrote: post #40

I want to go out as a result of a series of violent mistakes trying to save my life. Why would anyone want anything else? Peaceful death is basically suicide. Why do doctors continually perpetuate this notion that slipping softly into death (palliative care, hospice) is preferable to continually trying to avoid it by way of riskier and riskier attempts at treating the root cause? At the very least, we could be honest…

In many cases, there are no mistakes made. Imagine a doctor saying: "You're going out but if we inflict pain you will stay longer." What would you choose? Peace or pain? What would you want your relatives to choose for you? In case you can't decide anymore?

If the rest of my life will be nothing but pain, I don't think I'll want it.

Re: I Lied When I Said We Did Everything We Could

#63

Post by diminoten »

maxxxxx wrote: post #61
diminoten wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry, but excruciating pain is always better than death, because death is eternal nothingness. At least excruciating pain is something.

Have you seen someone in excruciating pain for a long time without hope for improvement or experienced it yourself? It's really easy to talk tough while you are healthy but your opinion may change once you are in that situation. From what I have seen I would prefer to go out in dignity at my own will instead of being an experiment of the medical machine. Others may feel different and I think both paths should be avai…

Yes. And no, my opinion hasn't changed.

What does dignity buy you if you're dead? Nothing. You can have yours, I'll spend mine to stay alive as long as possible.

Re: I Lied When I Said We Did Everything We Could

#64

Post by colechristensen »

Two sides show up here, fear and avoidance of pain and suffering :: fear and avoidance of death.

Most of the comments here advocate accepting death to minimize pain, but it doesn't have to be one or the other. With the right mindset you can accept both gracefully.

A life in pain can be worth living without running towards or away from death.

Re: I Lied When I Said We Did Everything We Could

#65

Post by maxxxxx »

diminoten wrote: post #63
maxxxxx wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you seen someone in excruciating pain for a long time without hope for improvement or experienced it yourself? It's really easy to talk tough while you are healthy but your opinion may change once you are in that situation. From what I have seen I would prefer to go out in dignity at my own will instead of being an experiment of the medical machine. Others may feel different and I think both paths should be avai…

Yes. And no, my opinion hasn't changed. What does dignity buy you if you're dead? Nothing. You can have yours, I'll spend mine to stay alive as long as possible.

That's your choice. As I said both options should be available.

In the end you will only know how you will really feel once you are in such a situation.

Re: I Lied When I Said We Did Everything We Could

#66

Post by jdietrich »

diminoten wrote: post #40

I want to go out as a result of a series of violent mistakes trying to save my life. Why would anyone want anything else? Peaceful death is basically suicide. Why do doctors continually perpetuate this notion that slipping softly into death (palliative care, hospice) is preferable to continually trying to avoid it by way of riskier and riskier attempts at treating the root cause? At the very least, we could be honest…

>Why do doctors continually perpetuate this notion that slipping softly into death (palliative care, hospice) is preferable to continually trying to avoid it by way of riskier and riskier attempts at treating the root cause?

Most end-of-life decisions don't involve an otherwise healthy young person who might expect another 50 or 60 years of good-quality life, they involve someone who has multiple serious health problems and is definitely going to die of something in the very immediate future.

We're not talking about saving lives, we're talking about briefly delaying an inevitable death. How much suffering would you be willing to endure for the possibility of another few days or weeks in a hospital bed?

Doctors know what these deaths look like. They know what it feels like to effectively torture someone for no good reason. Doctors overwhelmingly choose palliative care for themselves, because they know that extraordinary medical efforts for very sick patients are invariably brutal, miserable and futile.

Re: I Lied When I Said We Did Everything We Could

#67

Post by DesiLurker »

diminoten wrote: post #40

I want to go out as a result of a series of violent mistakes trying to save my life. Why would anyone want anything else? Peaceful death is basically suicide. Why do doctors continually perpetuate this notion that slipping softly into death (palliative care, hospice) is preferable to continually trying to avoid it by way of riskier and riskier attempts at treating the root cause? At the very least, we could be honest…

though I agree with you mostly I feel you are ignoring a couple of things

1) Pain, often pain management becomes a much bigger issue than going all out fighting vehemently to prolong your life by a few more days/weeks/months. Its hard to understand what chronic pain does to you and your mind unless you or a close loved one goes through it. Often pain management also aligns with 'slipping gently into the night'.

2) Incentives, hospitals are in the business of making money and they's gladly run marginally useful tests and medicines until they max out whatever coffers they can. as I see its not long before the ethical/common sense minded providers get overpowered by the money making machine and give in. as it is perhaps you are not aware there was a study that concluded most (IIRC 75%) of a persons healthcare expenses happen in last 18months of their lifes. just ask yourselves this, would you rather give your inheritance to your kids & grandkids or some hospital trying to maximize profits by promising you random treatment that increases you life by a few months? ultimately this should be your decision to make but there should be strong protections around the options providers can present to you.

edit:formatting

Re: I Lied When I Said We Did Everything We Could

#68

Post by jdietrich »

diminoten wrote: post #58
bo1024 wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You seem to be thinking of a case where an otherwise healthy person is dying of an incurable disease, and risky treatments might bring their health completely back. I don't think that's an accurate portrayal of most sicknesses and death in a hospital for the elderly. It's more like a progression of failures and problems (or a constellation), some mitigated, leading to more or less prolonged suffering with no end in s…

No, it makes zero sense. My grandfather had advanced Parkinson's, but had zero intention of dying to it or its cornucopia of related symptoms/effects. So what if he has a major disease that made life many orders of magnitude worse for him? Life is still life, and death is still infinitely worse. Giving up and accepting death may seem reasonable to some, but not for me or my grandfather. There's always a root cause, a…

>Life is still life, and death is still infinitely worse.

I assure you that this is untrue. There's a reason why people on the upper floors of the World Trade Center jumped from the windows, and it's not because they expected a soft landing. There are many, many things in this world worse than a peaceful death.

Re: I Lied When I Said We Did Everything We Could

#69

Post by marmaduke »

busterarm wrote: post #14
caprese wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The families often are in almost some sort of denial It was like pulling teeth to try to get doctors to tell me anything realistic. I don't get the impression that anyone in the medical community is trying to change this. Unlike my other family members, I had seen this person once a month obviously deteriorating in line with what every prognosis and statistic would say. My other family members were there every day…

I know some parents who had a child with an extremely rare degenerative disorder that attacks the nervous system. They were wealthy enough to afford extremely good care and as such, kept their poor suffering child "alive" for 12 years longer than anyone else who had ever had the same disease. Life expectancy of newborns with this disorder is about 1-3 years. At every turn, the doctors and nurses charged with the chil…

> laws preventing family members from prolonging the suffering

This would be inconsistent with the profit motive, which incentivizes patient treatments not cures.

Re: I Lied When I Said We Did Everything We Could

#70

Post by DesiLurker »

diminoten wrote: post #57
macintux wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I want to go out as a result of a series of violent mistakes trying to save my life. The problem is that excruciating pain is only obviously better than death if there’s something positive at the end of it. Otherwise it’s comparable to being tortured 24 hours a day for the rest of your life.

Sorry, but excruciating pain is always better than death, because death is eternal nothingness. At least excruciating pain is something.

such absolutist statements make me think you are relatively young and likely have not experienced any form of chronic pain, mind you not momentary pain that you 'rise above' but constant, unwavering, always-on pain. that changes perspectives, especially when you are old and don't have much to look forward to.
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