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Boeing MAX production cut signals long grounding

leehamnews.com

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Re: Boeing MAX production cut signals long grounding

#11

Post by Retric »

tibbydudeza wrote: post #9

Like the Toyota unintended acceleration issue we need third parties to look at the flight control software and engineering decisions taken for the MAX line and give a an independent report. Certainly not the FAA who delegated their oversight to Boeing. 346 people died because of their ineptitude.

At best, stricter regulations may have resulted in a different design to comply with US regulations. The FAA is not a global organization, they don’t have oversight over any of the crashed aircraft. So, it’s tricky to place blame on US regulators for foreign crashes.

Re: Boeing MAX production cut signals long grounding

#12

Post by adrr »

panarky wrote: post #3

Not only a longer grounding, but some airlines are canceling orders and many passengers don't want to fly in them. The 737 Max could become the Edsel of airplanes. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edsel

I won’t fly one unless it has 3 angle of attack sensors. Since that can’t be easily found out, I’ll avoid them.

Re: Boeing MAX production cut signals long grounding

#13

Post by jeltz »

Retric wrote: post #11
tibbydudeza wrote: post #9

Like the Toyota unintended acceleration issue we need third parties to look at the flight control software and engineering decisions taken for the MAX line and give a an independent report. Certainly not the FAA who delegated their oversight to Boeing. 346 people died because of their ineptitude.

At best, stricter regulations may have resulted in a different design to comply with US regulations. The FAA is not a global organization, they don’t have oversight over any of the crashed aircraft. So, it’s tricky to place blame on US regulators for foreign crashes.

That just means FAA wasn't the only inept organization.

Re: Boeing MAX production cut signals long grounding

#14

Post by thechao »

tibbydudeza wrote: post #9

Like the Toyota unintended acceleration issue we need third parties to look at the flight control software and engineering decisions taken for the MAX line and give a an independent report. Certainly not the FAA who delegated their oversight to Boeing. 346 people died because of their ineptitude.

Toyota never had an “unintended acceleration issue”—that was purely human error. A Toyota engine can’t overpower its brakes, unless there was gross negligence in the care of the brakes, i.e., they were totally inoperative. Just to make sure we’re clear on the braking thing: if you were to accelerate a Toyota sedan (any of them) to 70mph, then stomp on the brakes while holding the accelerator to the floor, the car will absolutely come to a complete halt in about the same distance as if you didn’t have your foot on the accelerator. Here’s another thing to back up my claim: how do you think burn outs work?

Re: Boeing MAX production cut signals long grounding

#15

Post by Retric »

jeltz wrote: post #13
Retric wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At best, stricter regulations may have resulted in a different design to comply with US regulations. The FAA is not a global organization, they don’t have oversight over any of the crashed aircraft. So, it’s tricky to place blame on US regulators for foreign crashes.

That just means FAA wasn't the only inept organization.

Blaming EASA/FAA/Boing etc feels good, but calling them inept becase they are not perfect is overstating things. Looking back it seems like an obviously bad call, but that’s hindsight bias.

Re: Boeing MAX production cut signals long grounding

#16

Post by rasz »

tibbydudeza wrote: post #9

Like the Toyota unintended acceleration issue we need third parties to look at the flight control software and engineering decisions taken for the MAX line and give a an independent report. Certainly not the FAA who delegated their oversight to Boeing. 346 people died because of their ineptitude.

I agree, we need someone like Michael Barr to comb thru supposedly clean safety certified Ada codebase (in reality most likely full of C++ garbage).

Re: Boeing MAX production cut signals long grounding

#17

Post by noselasd »

thechao wrote: post #14
tibbydudeza wrote: post #9

Like the Toyota unintended acceleration issue we need third parties to look at the flight control software and engineering decisions taken for the MAX line and give a an independent report. Certainly not the FAA who delegated their oversight to Boeing. 346 people died because of their ineptitude.

Toyota never had an “unintended acceleration issue”—that was purely human error. A Toyota engine can’t overpower its brakes, unless there was gross negligence in the care of the brakes, i.e., they were totally inoperative. Just to make sure we’re clear on the braking thing: if you were to accelerate a Toyota sedan (any of them) to 70mph, then stomp on the brakes while holding the accelerator to the floor, the car wil…

an "unintended acceleration issue" is quite orthogonal to whether the brakes work perfectly and could overcome the engine.

Re: Boeing MAX production cut signals long grounding

#18

Post by MuffinFlavored »

tibbydudeza wrote: post #9

Like the Toyota unintended acceleration issue we need third parties to look at the flight control software and engineering decisions taken for the MAX line and give a an independent report. Certainly not the FAA who delegated their oversight to Boeing. 346 people died because of their ineptitude.

> 346 people died because of their ineptitude.

This might be too hot of a take for HackerNews, but... look at how many people the FAA has kept safe over the past 30 years. I'm pretty sure the number of people who travel without dying is very, very high. I don't disagree that their might have been some ineptitude (I'm sure you could find that anywhere for anything since it's opinion driven), but to say the FAA is all rotten because 346 died is kind of dramatic when millions have been kept safe.

Re: Boeing MAX production cut signals long grounding

#19

Post by seandougall »

thechao wrote: post #14
tibbydudeza wrote: post #9

Like the Toyota unintended acceleration issue we need third parties to look at the flight control software and engineering decisions taken for the MAX line and give a an independent report. Certainly not the FAA who delegated their oversight to Boeing. 346 people died because of their ineptitude.

Toyota never had an “unintended acceleration issue”—that was purely human error. A Toyota engine can’t overpower its brakes, unless there was gross negligence in the care of the brakes, i.e., they were totally inoperative. Just to make sure we’re clear on the braking thing: if you were to accelerate a Toyota sedan (any of them) to 70mph, then stomp on the brakes while holding the accelerator to the floor, the car wil…

That sounds like a fun experiment to try on, say, a winding mountain road...

Re: Boeing MAX production cut signals long grounding

#20

Post by darkpuma »

adrr wrote: post #12
panarky wrote: post #3

Not only a longer grounding, but some airlines are canceling orders and many passengers don't want to fly in them. The 737 Max could become the Edsel of airplanes. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edsel

I won’t fly one unless it has 3 angle of attack sensors. Since that can’t be easily found out, I’ll avoid them.

Three angle of attack sensors seems unnecessary to me. They simply need to make MCAS pay attention to both (2) and cut out if one disagrees with the other.
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