Why 'worthless' humanities degrees may set you up for life • Hacker News Board

Re: Why 'worthless' humanities degrees may set you up for life

#71

Post by presidente20 » Sun, Apr 07, 2019, 3:47 PM UTC

The article contains a number of flaws IMO. Its argument seems to be:

1. Graduates with any degree earn more money and have less unemployment. No doubt true, but how do you discount selection bias here? Given that it's on average the smarter / more diligent part of the population that goes to university a better question would be what's the value add of university (and then break down by faculty / degree)? Maybe their employment rate is higher due to the necessity of having to pay off their tuition fees :)

2. Some humanities people are successful. No doubt. Plenty of smart motivated folks take humanities subjects so it's not surprising that some of them are successful but I'd like to see some data on expected return across the board rather than cherry picked examples. Wildly successful people might be outliers anyway. Also if you're from a wealthy background you could probably do anything and still have a shot at being a CEO.

3. Most examples of jobs for humanities graduates given in the article are not really graduate jobs, e.g. after sales support for Uber (do you really need a degree for that?). Management roles perhaps, but the article doesn't delve into those jobs, presumably there was some sort of vocational experience involved before they were managers?

4. Critical thinking skills. I'm not convinced that humanities degrees do lead to better critical thinking skills. I am biased but it seems to me Maths and hard science subjects would hone your critical thinking much more (isolating variables, logic, understanding complex material) and it's not like Science grads don't read books on other subjects. The author demonstrates a complete lack of critical thinking skills IMO.

5. Understanding of statistics seems like a pretty valuable tool to bring to most occupations and it would be nice if journalists had that and I doubt you get that from Humanities.

6. Empathy? Seriously? You need a degree to develop empathy?

Re: Why 'worthless' humanities degrees may set you up for life

#72

Post by jeffdavis » Sun, Apr 07, 2019, 3:48 PM UTC

chasing wrote: post #54

jeffdavis wrote: post #11

The main problem with the humanities is that they have been consumed by the political far left. That's sad, because English, history, and philosphy could be great programs. I remember I was struggling to get decent grades on my history papers. I was running out of patience and decided I just wanted to pass. So I just wrote what I thought the professor wanted to hear (far left BS) and started getting B's and even an A…

If you just want to write papers about whatever you want to write papers about, why take a class? The professor is supposed to give you push-back. Anyway, I studied those subjects in college and had zero issues with professors pushing political agendas. I did, though, have professors push back and give me poor grades on papers where I either didn't understand the material, did a poor job thinking about the material,…

I could have dropped and taken a different class, but I lost my patience.

I rationalized it as an experiment to see the intellectual value of the class I was taking. I feel like I learned a valuable lesson, but not in history.

Sure, there's supposed to be push back on any claim. But it's very much lighter if the professor/TA believes it to be true already.

I am not claiming I am an amazing historian who is right and the professor is wrong. But I expect my ideas to be evaluated on the merits: how well I defend the idea given my level of study.

Re: Why 'worthless' humanities degrees may set you up for life

#73

Post by trentmb » Sun, Apr 07, 2019, 3:50 PM UTC

lordnacho wrote: post #15

exelius wrote: post #12

I have a philosophy degree, and I believe it’s a big part of why I’ve been successful in technology. It taught me to think in patterns and layers upon layers of abstraction; while giving me general-purpose tools that can be applied to problem solving in complex, interrelated systems. I thought I was making a mistake choosing that degree path over CS; but CS was making me miserable with the crazy workload — which ende…

> but CS was making me miserable with the crazy workload Didn't you have to do a load of reading/essays in the philosophy course?

This is more or less why I fell into mathematics.

I eventually learned I have ADHD, which definitely explained why I couldn't keep up with the reading and writing workload in the philosophy and literature courses.

Re: Why 'worthless' humanities degrees may set you up for life

#74

Post by [deleted] » Sun, Apr 07, 2019, 3:50 PM UTC

quietbritishjim wrote: post #67

chrisseaton wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> they generally need to complete a relevant Master's degree first No that's not the case at all - most people do a three-years bachelors and then a three-year PhD. That's the expected route for a PhD in the UK. Doing a masters in between would look like you were starting to drag it out a bit. And the first year of your PhD is worth a masters if you chose to drop out at that point.

For mathematics, all the top-tier UK universities expect you to do a one-year taught masters (i.e. not a research masters) before starting a PhD. This certainly includes Cambridge, Oxford, Warwick, Imperial, UCL and KCL. Cambridge calls its masters a "Part III" or "Certificate of Advance Studies" but it's definitely just a regular masters, albeit a really hard one. Mathematics PhDs in most of these institutions have…

[deleted]

Re: Why 'worthless' humanities degrees may set you up for life

#75

Post by 0x445442 » Sun, Apr 07, 2019, 3:51 PM UTC

fwip wrote: post #50

veryworried wrote: post #10

I am not convinced it is wise to abandon an opportunity for a STEM degree in favor of humanities when it seems like it’d be far easier to DIY a humanities education than it would be to DIY a STEM education.

Much of STEM is self-teachable. It is easy to self-evaluate "yes, I understand this math, and I get the right answers / produce working tools." It is not easy to learn the humanities without direct feedback from an expert, or robust experience with your peers.

Meh, the feedback you speak of is often subjective. The beauty of STEM is that you can objectively take stock of where you stand.

Re: Why 'worthless' humanities degrees may set you up for life

#76

Post by segmondy » Sun, Apr 07, 2019, 3:54 PM UTC

jeffdavis wrote: post #11

The main problem with the humanities is that they have been consumed by the political far left. That's sad, because English, history, and philosphy could be great programs. I remember I was struggling to get decent grades on my history papers. I was running out of patience and decided I just wanted to pass. So I just wrote what I thought the professor wanted to hear (far left BS) and started getting B's and even an A…

... and that's the real life skills you learned. sometimes you gotta do/say what people want to hear to get ahead. One of the most important life skills ever.

Re: Why 'worthless' humanities degrees may set you up for life

#77

Post by presidente20 » Sun, Apr 07, 2019, 4:00 PM UTC

overgard wrote: post #64

lordnacho wrote: post #42

IMHO most people should take a STEM degree if they're going to uni. Not because of the labour market, which is a fickle thing. The main reason is that you will be able to pick up a humanities/social science course with the skills you already have at the end of high school. What do people do in those degrees? Read text, think critically, express ideas. And you've not only practised that a fair bit in school, but also…

I also think that STEM degrees teach you to break down problems mechanically and "think like a machine". It also can teach you to be able to project an idea to a logical conclusion even if that end point is uncomfortable or surprising. That might not sound like a skill to a lot of people, but I've noticed people without STEM educations or who aren't self-taught in some sort of similar way aren't always great at doing…

Great point. I think there are some subtle things about Maths in particular and science in general that make it more educational. One is learning to accept and understand things that are at first counter-intuitive. When solving Maths problems I seem to recall that it was often easy to fool myself into a wrong solution due to faulty intuition. Maths trains you to distrust it, dig into problems, use logic and check/test your solution. Furthermore the hard feedback you get helps all the above. Discussing something or writing an essay on a topic which doesn't have a defined answer doesn't seem like a great educational experience even though the activity itself is valuable.

Re: Why 'worthless' humanities degrees may set you up for life

#78

Post by 52-6F-62 » Sun, Apr 07, 2019, 4:08 PM UTC

acconrad wrote: post #32

traviswingo wrote: post #7

I think it’s worth mentioning all degrees are worthless if you don’t know how to leverage them. If you get a CS degree from a top school just because you see what salaries are, not because that’s what you’re interested in, your career will be mediocre at best. School shouldn’t be looked at as mandatory and burdensome, it should be a tool that helps you achieve a level of understanding about something that you’re head…

> that you’re head over heels excited about. How are you supposed to know passion at 18? I do alumni interviewing for my college and most kids have no singular passion they want to pursue (and more often than not, they are hoping college will help them find that passion). And I don't blame them. Finding a singular passion to center a degree around at a young age is not the norm. And yet we put a lot of pressure on ou…

Do you think it’s that uncommon?

I’ve immersed myself in literature, music, and technology since a young age—initially went to school for English and left my coursework to work. I’ve spent my entire career working in fields that interested me when I was young. My favourite part has been working to blend my interests.

Though you’re probably onto something about the pressure put on kids to fit an existing need rather than exploring possibilities. My personal experience would have me think so at least.

Re: Why 'worthless' humanities degrees may set you up for life

#79

Post by presidente20 » Sun, Apr 07, 2019, 4:12 PM UTC

chrisseaton wrote: post #5

I have friends from university with degrees in history, classics, theology, that make 3x what I do as a software engineer with a PhD. They work in things like corporate intelligence, risk analysis, planning and operations. Really high-powered serious stuff that makes what I do look rather trivial. They get hired as their companies want diversity of thought and the main job requirement is just being smart, switched-on…

Good point. The one thing in the article I agreed with is that it's better to do a traditional humanities subject rather than a vocational one (like communications, operations management, business operations). The latter seem to narrow and subject to fashion.

Re: Why 'worthless' humanities degrees may set you up for life

#80

Post by presidente20 » Sun, Apr 07, 2019, 4:20 PM UTC

chrisseaton wrote: post #27

veryworried wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have a hard time believing this would be the norm at a sufficient number of companies that it would justify picking up one of these degrees. Knowing technical skills when applying to technical companies seems like a safer bet.

Well maybe but I think that's an issue - encouraging people, especially from those form working-class backgrounds, to take the safe bet rather than fulfilling their potential. Working-class young people are encouraged to take a safe job in the local area living a limited life, while middle-class young people with the same ability are encouraged to stick their necks out more to go to the top universities and try for t…

But that's rational isn't it? The expected outcome is much lower for someone from a working class background so play safe. You won't have access to connections or sound advice from mentors in the know. You're less likely to be going to a top school where you could 'get away with' a humanities degree.

Agree that I'd like to see more working class kids being ambitious and going for top schools, moving away from home etc but at least play safe and go for something with job prospects.