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Why 'worthless' humanities degrees may set you up for life

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Re: Why 'worthless' humanities degrees may set you up for life

#31
post #9

I have History and CS degrees. The CS experience (at a top engineering school) felt fairly vocational. But being rigorously taught how to research, construct arguments, and communicate ideas in my Liberal Arts degree has been what made me successful past my first hire. I definitely recommend double majoring in a Liberal Arts degree. Also perhaps there’s a lesson here about the CS curriculum being too vocational at mo…

> Also perhaps there’s a lesson here about the CS curriculum being too vocational at most colleges? Or not needing a 4 year college if it aims to be vocational? I heard a claim that sounded plausible to me: CS in the US originated from electrical engineering, and so is based on a degree that is based on the ability to directly influence things and make stuff happen - pretty vocational. In Germany CS is derived from m…

In Italy there are both disciplines: informatica, that is derived from maths and ingegneria informatica that is derived from engineering. I thought that everywhere in the world there was the same distinction, I had no idea that entire countries had only one or the other but not both choices together.

Re: Why 'worthless' humanities degrees may set you up for life

#32

I think it’s worth mentioning all degrees are worthless if you don’t know how to leverage them. If you get a CS degree from a top school just because you see what salaries are, not because that’s what you’re interested in, your career will be mediocre at best. School shouldn’t be looked at as mandatory and burdensome, it should be a tool that helps you achieve a level of understanding about something that you’re head…

> that you’re head over heels excited about.

How are you supposed to know passion at 18? I do alumni interviewing for my college and most kids have no singular passion they want to pursue (and more often than not, they are hoping college will help them find that passion).

And I don't blame them. Finding a singular passion to center a degree around at a young age is not the norm. And yet we put a lot of pressure on our kids to be specialists before they're even able to vote. It's a very difficult situation to put children through.

Re: Why 'worthless' humanities degrees may set you up for life

#33

In my experience the liberal arts classes I was required to take were all big 100+ person lecture -> memorize -> test classes. I tend to think a lot of the praise heaped on liberal arts is the fallacy that since these skills are not learned in STEM classes, they must be learned in liberal arts classes. It also seems like those classes are taught at a much lower level. Plenty of people fail out of STEM and go on to be…

> In my experience the liberal arts classes I was required to take were all big 100+ person lecture -> memorize -> test classes

The classes you were "required to take" likely were intro classes with large enrollments. What you describe is how many intro science classes are taught at many universities as well. And even many second year science classes. It is generally only in the 300-400 level classes that are within your major that you start to have small sections with more intimate interaction with the professor.

Re: Why 'worthless' humanities degrees may set you up for life

#34
This paragraph amused me:

> And while there’s often an assumption that the careers humanities graduates pursue just aren’t as good as the jobs snapped up by, say, engineers or medics, that isn’t the case. In Australia, for example, three of the 10 fastest-growing occupations are sales assistants, clerks, and advertising, public relations and sales managers – all of which might look familiar as fields that humanities graduates tend to pursue.

Sales assistants and clerks are pretty dull sounding jobs. the fact that humanities people pursue them and that they're available does not mean this is good for humanities people.

This paragraph was similarly dumb

> We also know that as more women move into a field, the field’s overall earnings go down. Given that, is it any wonder that English majors, seven in 10 of whom are women, tend to make less than engineers, eight in 10 of whom are men?

Female engineers make more than male humanities on average, according to the charts they linked to. It's definitely not a gender problem.

I've never bought the arguments for liberal arts. STEM degrees require plenty of critical thinking, argument formation, and learning to work with others. That's not to say you won't learn these things in humanities, but they're not special. They're a basic part of learning almost any subject that isn't rote memorization.

The article points out that you can make a humanities degree work, but I'm not convinced this is a meaningful way to look at it. What fraction of successful humanities majors should attribute their success to the fact that their degree was in humanities? Maybe just being a reasonably intelligent person with a college degree in anything is enough to be a successful person.

The article talks about salaries too. Overall humanities majors make less, but for some jobs they make more. That's probably not a good way to think about it either. Of course people who study pre-law are, on average, going to make less doing law. The law firms fill out their lowest positions from the masses of pre-law students. Taking an alternate path into something means you're more likely to be doing something special or having connections to a good gig.

For the most part, I don't see your undergrad major driving a significant portion of your capabilities, regardless of what it is. Humanities doesn't have an obvious job market they signal baseline competence towards. That doesn't make them bad, but it also doesn't mean we need to create stories about why they compensate for this.

Re: Why 'worthless' humanities degrees may set you up for life

#35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Or not needing a 4 year college if it aims to be vocational? US colleges could absolutely drop the fourth year tomorrow if they wanted to. Many excellent European universities get it done in three and get results just as good. The real waste of time is the US PhD - doing in seven years what could be done in two or three.

The reason the US PhD takes five to seven years is because most students enter it without a Master's degree. In the UK it only takes two or three years because they generally need to complete a relevant Master's degree first.

> they generally need to complete a relevant Master's degree first

No that's not the case at all - most people do a three-years bachelors and then a three-year PhD. That's the expected route for a PhD in the UK. Doing a masters in between would look like you were starting to drag it out a bit. And the first year of your PhD is worth a masters if you chose to drop out at that point.

Re: Why 'worthless' humanities degrees may set you up for life

#36

In my experience the liberal arts classes I was required to take were all big 100+ person lecture -> memorize -> test classes. I tend to think a lot of the praise heaped on liberal arts is the fallacy that since these skills are not learned in STEM classes, they must be learned in liberal arts classes. It also seems like those classes are taught at a much lower level. Plenty of people fail out of STEM and go on to be…

Bumping the difficulty to make it credible is basically video game logic, though. It should be as difficult (or easy) as it needs to be.

Re: Why 'worthless' humanities degrees may set you up for life

#37

In my experience the liberal arts classes I was required to take were all big 100+ person lecture -> memorize -> test classes. I tend to think a lot of the praise heaped on liberal arts is the fallacy that since these skills are not learned in STEM classes, they must be learned in liberal arts classes. It also seems like those classes are taught at a much lower level. Plenty of people fail out of STEM and go on to be…

Almost none of my liberal arts classes were like that, and a lot of the lowest level science classes were. So there you have the power of anecdotal evidence.

My liberal arts classes required lots of writing and a hell a lot of hard thinking.

Re: Why 'worthless' humanities degrees may set you up for life

#38

The main problem with the humanities is that they have been consumed by the political far left. That's sad, because English, history, and philosphy could be great programs. I remember I was struggling to get decent grades on my history papers. I was running out of patience and decided I just wanted to pass. So I just wrote what I thought the professor wanted to hear (far left BS) and started getting B's and even an A…

> The main problem with the humanities is that they have been consumed by the political far left.

That's overstated. There's plenty of good scholarship being done, in the humanities and especially in the social sciences, that is by necessity either non-political or extremely careful and overt about any political claims that they do make. But you're absolutely right that there is a growing far-left fringe, driven by Red Guard-inspired ideas from the 1960s and 1970s about "culture" and "academica" being nothing more than bourgeois privilege that one shouldn't have anything to do with. (And yes, that's especially in the Anglosphere - since by and large, other Western countries did their own Maoist thing in academia literally decades ago, and they've gotten it out of their system by now.) At the end of the day it just functions as an enabler of corruption and laziness, since the political stance is pretty clear as you say. They basically spend their time awarding "B's and A-'s" to one another, with basically no-one else caring much at all about the whole thing.

Re: Why 'worthless' humanities degrees may set you up for life

#39

The main problem with the humanities is that they have been consumed by the political far left. That's sad, because English, history, and philosphy could be great programs. I remember I was struggling to get decent grades on my history papers. I was running out of patience and decided I just wanted to pass. So I just wrote what I thought the professor wanted to hear (far left BS) and started getting B's and even an A…

That's very strange to hear. I'm not sure where you studied but when I studied history at university papers were assessed in terms of argument construction, and how you assessed other historians work, and all you said had to be referenced in some way. Whether the lecturer agreed with your conclusion or not was not the basis of your mark.

UCSD. If it was about argument construction, then why would my rushed papers get better grades than the ones I put thought into?

To be fair, not all classes were quite so bad. I took a small class in ancient ME history and it was much more detached and apolitical, while still being interesting and surprisingly relevant.

Re: Why 'worthless' humanities degrees may set you up for life

#40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have a hard time believing this would be the norm at a sufficient number of companies that it would justify picking up one of these degrees. Knowing technical skills when applying to technical companies seems like a safer bet.

Well maybe but I think that's an issue - encouraging people, especially from those form working-class backgrounds, to take the safe bet rather than fulfilling their potential. Working-class young people are encouraged to take a safe job in the local area living a limited life, while middle-class young people with the same ability are encouraged to stick their necks out more to go to the top universities and try for t…

And for good reason, because if those working class young take a risk and it doesn’t work out (and it usually doesn’t) they are doomed to a lifetime of poverty and anguish from which there is no escape. There is value in taking the safe bet. Having a degree in English will be a cold comfort then.
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