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Nuclear power is the fastest way to slash greenhouse gas emissions, decarbonize

nytimes.com

321–330 of 731 posts

Re: Nuclear power is the fastest way to slash greenhouse gas emissions, decarbonize

#321

Can we just get something straight about the Fukushima Dai-ichi nuclear power plant? Although it was a 1960's design, the reason it failed the way it did was because of one design flaw... Its backup generators were not placed up on the hills above it. Rather, the backup generators were situated below sea level underneath the reactor buildings. DERP. Fukushima Dai-ichi survived the Magnitude 9 earthquake. It did not s…

Can we just get something straight about the waste situation?

It's still not solved. As long as that is the case, I think nuclear energy is not an option.

Re: Nuclear power is the fastest way to slash greenhouse gas emissions, decarbonize

#322
post #292

Renewable energy is cheaper than nuclear, or will be imminently. Proponents of nuclear tend to ignore the long-run costs associated with nuclear (eg. waste transport and storage), and the potential for cost blowouts due to acute disasters like Fukushima (estimated cost to taxpayers: USD $100 Billion). The fact tax money is going towards Fukushima highlights another problem with nuclear power: the agency problem. The…

Somebody gets it! It makes absolutely no sense to start building nuclear now. Even if you could guarantee 10 year build time at a fixed cost today (which you can't), by the time it is operational solar+storage will be even more economical than it is today. The cost curves are simply too favorable for any private market to favor nuclear over solar currently. Everyone in this thread keeps talking about the technology,…

Is storage a solved problem yet? Afaik, dams are the only viable option, and not universally available.

I thought batteries just weren't there yet. Especially if you take wear cycles into account.

Re: Nuclear power is the fastest way to slash greenhouse gas emissions, decarbonize

#323
The question is What is the fastest way?, not what is possible in the future. People disagreeing in this thread fail to address the reasons stated in the article why renewables alone are not complete solution and why nuclear is good choice to compensate.

Germans made attempt to increase renewables only but ended up increasing coal use because rationing electricity was not an politically feasible option when renewable electricity production was low.

Without nuclear energy you can increase renewable usage up to 50% economically if you build better grid and add some overcapacity and recharge car batteries at night, but you must fire up coal or natural gas electricity plants for the nighttimes and exceptionally cold or hot time periods.

If you build nuclear plants they will not throttle down for days or when renewable energy is plenty and electricity price goes negative. This decreases the profitability of both renewables and nuclear.

In some time in future, it's possible to go full renewables but you need very robust smart grid, large scale energy storage (not lithium-ion) etc. That's possible but it's not the fastest way. Building more nuclear power is the fastest way to drive down CO2 in addition with renewables.

Re: Nuclear power is the fastest way to slash greenhouse gas emissions, decarbonize

#324
post #278

Can we just get something straight about the Fukushima Dai-ichi nuclear power plant? Although it was a 1960's design, the reason it failed the way it did was because of one design flaw... Its backup generators were not placed up on the hills above it. Rather, the backup generators were situated below sea level underneath the reactor buildings. DERP. Fukushima Dai-ichi survived the Magnitude 9 earthquake. It did not s…

> My point is that nuclear power is safe, as long as all disaster scenarios are taken into account I don't know if you are old enough to remember it, but that's exactly what nuclear energy proponents said in the 70s. Since then, actual experience showed that about every 20 years, there has been a big incident with global impact, and it will take decades if not centuries until the affected area is usable again. And th…

>but that's exactly what nuclear energy proponents said in the 70s.

And how many plants failed that were built after the 70s?

>The consequences of a disaster are too great

Even with the disasters, it kills fewer people than coal even without taking into account the damage from global warming.

It’s like refusing to fly because plane crashes stick out in memory and then choosing to drive instead, despite how much more unsafe it is.

Re: Nuclear power is the fastest way to slash greenhouse gas emissions, decarbonize

#325

Can we just get something straight about the Fukushima Dai-ichi nuclear power plant? Although it was a 1960's design, the reason it failed the way it did was because of one design flaw... Its backup generators were not placed up on the hills above it. Rather, the backup generators were situated below sea level underneath the reactor buildings. DERP. Fukushima Dai-ichi survived the Magnitude 9 earthquake. It did not s…

> in Fukushima Dai-ichi's case, for some reason (possibly financial?), it was decided that the tsunami barrier was sufficient (it wasn't) for the job, Plate tectonics was not understood or scientifically described until 65-67. It was not a widely accepted theory until later, at least the 70s. By that point, Fukushima had already been permitted and built. Without plate tectonics to create the plate shift earthquake wh…

Also, wasn't fukushima tsunami the 'biggest' in recent centuries ?

Re: Nuclear power is the fastest way to slash greenhouse gas emissions, decarbonize

#326
post #292

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Somebody gets it! It makes absolutely no sense to start building nuclear now. Even if you could guarantee 10 year build time at a fixed cost today (which you can't), by the time it is operational solar+storage will be even more economical than it is today. The cost curves are simply too favorable for any private market to favor nuclear over solar currently. Everyone in this thread keeps talking about the technology,…

>It makes absolutely no sense to start building nuclear now. Imagine if the developed world invested in nuclear to the extent that France did in the 60s and 70s - how many trillions of tons of CO2 would NOT have been emitted into the atmosphere? You can talk about Republican denialism, but it is anti-nuke lobby that will be held responsible for climate change. >by the time it is operational solar+storage will be even…

"magine if the developed world invested in nuclear to the extent that France did in the 60s and 70s - how many trillions of tons of CO2 would NOT have been emitted into the atmosphere? "

I think OPs point is essentially that, even if nuclear would have helped in the 70s, it is now too late.

As for the intermittent issues of power. I think there's a lot to gain from long distance transportation combined with reliable output like hydro, existing nuclear, and perhaps later tidal.

Re: Nuclear power is the fastest way to slash greenhouse gas emissions, decarbonize

#327

Renewable energy is cheaper than nuclear, or will be imminently. Proponents of nuclear tend to ignore the long-run costs associated with nuclear (eg. waste transport and storage), and the potential for cost blowouts due to acute disasters like Fukushima (estimated cost to taxpayers: USD $100 Billion). The fact tax money is going towards Fukushima highlights another problem with nuclear power: the agency problem. The…

>Renewable energy is cheaper than nuclear, or will be imminently. Solar and wind are plenty cheap. That's not their problem. The problem, as the article stated, is that "they are not available around the clock, rain or shine, and batteries that could power entire cities for days or weeks show no sign of materializing any time soon." So now what do you do?

Passive solar design as a requirement for new construction would help reduce how much energy buildings require. It also makes them more comfortable, not less.

Design cities for pedestrians, bicycles and public transit. This will help reduce heat island effect, thereby reducing the need for AC.

I slept in a tent for nearly six years. I plugged in at the library during the day. I got by on battery power in the evening until I fell asleep.

I'm currently in a hundred year old building with radiant heat and no AC. It has good design that helps keep the building comfortable without a lot of modern amenities we think are required.

I spend a lot of time online. I don't own a TV.

You can have a very modern life on a lot less electricity than many people use.

It's really not a given that we must use high levels of electricity to maintain a high quality of life. The first thing we should do is question such assumptions. The second is start actively challenging them.

This is a problem rooted in culture more than technology.

Re: Nuclear power is the fastest way to slash greenhouse gas emissions, decarbonize

#328
post #244

Renewable energy is cheaper than nuclear, or will be imminently. Proponents of nuclear tend to ignore the long-run costs associated with nuclear (eg. waste transport and storage), and the potential for cost blowouts due to acute disasters like Fukushima (estimated cost to taxpayers: USD $100 Billion). The fact tax money is going towards Fukushima highlights another problem with nuclear power: the agency problem. The…

It's also interesting to note the headline is "Nuclear power is the fastest way to slash greenhouse gas emissions.." Even if the US was totally committed, and decided to build a brand new reactor right now, how long would it take? A decade? We can slap up renewables in a fraction of that time, and spend the next decade reaping the rewards, not sitting around waiting for the magical payoff of a reactor that will cost…

> Even if the US was totally committed, and decided to build a brand new reactor right now, how long would it take? A decade?

Totally committed? You sure? Ok.

The US could bring at least two dozen new nuclear power plants online per year. It could do that with only modest impact on its massive economy.

National security declaration (probably numerous). Bypass all environmental building concerns and impact reviews. Pull most of the US military out of Europe and all of it out of the Middle East. Mobilize at least 100,000 soldiers in support of the mission (ideally twice that number; clearing land, hauling materials, dealing with protestors, providing area security, restricting access including by drones). Whatever needs to be done, will be done. Redirect several agencies (DARPA, DOE, etc) to almost exclusively working on this mission for ten years. Have Congress declare a draft on the back of the national security declarations, pull relevant scientists and engineers out of the private economy via draft. Suspend all emigration. Federalize the control of all national guard troops, draft them all formally under the command of the US Military and remove them from their states to avoid potential state resistance (numerous states would attempt to resist this very strong-armed Federal plan). Nuclear plants would be reasonably distributed across the country, some states would attempt to resist any plants being built inside their borders, which is another reason you remove their national guard troops. This is serious, so we'll do what is necessary. It's life or death after all, right? If the Supreme Court attempts to block it, expand the size of the Supreme Court and stuff the bench until your votes win.

Use eminent domain where necessary. Limit taking private land as much as reasonably possible; doing so just gives the resistance groups an issue to play up. Fortunately in this case the Federal Government owns a ridiculous amount of land (particularly in the western states).

The US has an epic scale labor force, and millions of healthy people doing nothing that could be drafted into various basic positions in support of this large national project. Jobs! (there's that sound bite) Another plus: absolute secrecy would not be particularly paramount, unlike with the Manhattan Project. You wouldn't need a bunch of Oak Ridges. There isn't anything that special about a modern nuclear power plant, and the US wouldn't be using any radically new technology in these plants anyway.

Initially getting up to speed would take several years (standardizing and getting new workers enough experience, etc), after which you could get to a rate of bringing a new plant or two online in a given month.

Fund it with a trivial Federal Reserve Nuclear QE program. $20-$30 billion per month in 'printing.' The dollar wouldn't even notice, and it'd keep the budget from getting further stretched (which would keep the general population more calm than if you spiked their taxes or took from their social programs).

Task the major banks - all of which are realistically under direct supervisory control of the Federal Reserve and Treasury these days - with helping to keep the US financial system stable (there might initially be some panic), including where interest rates are concerned. The US has the most powerful banking and financial system by a considerable margin, it would be told to accomodate and assist, or else (look what they did for funding the shale build-out, a spigot of hundreds of billions of dollars; private loans involved in the program would largely be back-stopped by the Fed; thousands of companies in the private economy would need loans to ramp up early on; the banks making some money on this would remove a potential resistance point). Put the talking heads on TV to work pushing the agenda favorably, to calm the population; spin how positive this will be for the economy, jobs jobs jobs (just keep repeating that). Do the exact same thing for the business & financial media to soothe Wall Street, talk up how good it'll be for corporate profits, manufacturing, construction, et al. Throw billions of printed magic dollars at the military industrial complex and their partners, to remove (bribe) a potential adversary to the plan. There's a line for everyone: jobs, green, do it for the children, manufacturing & blue collar, energy independence, tell them how great it will make America, etc.

By necessity we'd build and improve a lot of grid along the way as well. There would be several hundred billion dollars spent on that over more than a decade.

15-20 total years for the program (a dozen or so prime building years in there, during which most of the plants would come online). Once the early years of hard work of ramping up, standardizing and getting it all rolling was done, you could relax some of the initial political policies that it took to get underway. The program would also include a considerable investment into the aging 60 plant fleet the US has now. In the end, this would wipe out most of the US fossil fuel economy. It would cost several trillion 2019 dollars, spread out over two decades. The ~20 year program span would give us time to gradually retrain labor away from the fossil fuel economy. As the plants are brought online, you'd start by eliminating existing coal plants and coal jobs first (there aren't actually that many workers in coal these days anyway), with the displaced workers getting jobs and job training to participate in the new nuclear power economy.

How committed do you want to get? How dire is the situation?

Re: Nuclear power is the fastest way to slash greenhouse gas emissions, decarbonize

#329

Can we just get something straight about the Fukushima Dai-ichi nuclear power plant? Although it was a 1960's design, the reason it failed the way it did was because of one design flaw... Its backup generators were not placed up on the hills above it. Rather, the backup generators were situated below sea level underneath the reactor buildings. DERP. Fukushima Dai-ichi survived the Magnitude 9 earthquake. It did not s…

> My point is that nuclear power is safe, as long as all disaster scenarios are taken into account To be honest, you could probably make that argument for anything under question in any scenario. But even if we were to skip the logical loopholes ("We took it into account, but we decided the benefits outweighed the costs because of "), let's just look at the raw numbers or simply just historical facts. Have any disast…

>Have any disasters at coal plants rendered areas uninhabitable for centuries?

Yes, the very use of fossil fuels at the extent we use them is causing an extinction level event for the entire planet. Does the gravity of that really sink in?

Re: Nuclear power is the fastest way to slash greenhouse gas emissions, decarbonize

#330

Earlier quoted context omitted.

coal is arguably worse even when it's working as designed. it's just amortized over a much larger area.

Anything is "arguably" worse or better. But honestly, I would challenge that point any day. As much as I'm against fossil fuels, coal powered plants only contribute a very minor part to global warming compared to lets say... ships, planes and cars. And my point is not about coal specifically - it was just mentioned because that's what the main opposition is to nuclear. Not solar/wind/water. My point is that failure o…

How many people died because of Fukushima? How many died when the oil train blew up in the Canadian town? How many coal miners died from silicosis? How many die when a dam fails and wipes out entire towns?

The failure scenario is demonstrably better than everything we’ve tried. More people have died installing solar and wind than have from nuclear.

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