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Buy Yourself a Latte

ritholtz.com

301–310 of 351 posts

Re: Buy Yourself a Latte

#301
To me the article is somewhat missing the most interesting point of the whole discussion and that’s the impact that the money is having when it is spend. Let me be a little provocative :)

While a great coffee can be a pleasurable experience that can actually make you more productive and happy in the short-run with possible positive long-term flow-trough effects (e.g., on life satisfaction), there are likely going to be more impactful uses of that money. As the most obvious examples, for instance, saving childrens lifes in Africa [givewell.org], improving the messy factory farming situation [gfi.org], etc. So wouldn’t you have the moral imperative to spend that money in a way that it’s impact is higher or at least comparable than those possible alternatives?

I would argue that in many cases this is actually possible when you are buying a coffee but not regularly, though... then you could likely find more effective alternatives, thus, the habbit would be obviously harder to justify for the vast majority of people.

My major quip with all of this is that our institutions could be designed in a way that would help us to make smart decisions (for us and others) but at the moment it is computationally really expensive to find a good path that balances all interests in way that leads to a great life for all.

Re: Buy Yourself a Latte

#302
I think part of the problem is how real estate costs and huge franchise a la Starbucks are configured. When you travel in Mediterranean countries independent coffee shops 'bars' are the norm, and a good Italian espresso costs 0.80 euros. Part of it comes from the fact that bars sell a big assortment of alcoholics(and yes Europeans don't seem to have mental association between selling alcohol and getting wasted, so most bars are family friendly), sodas and indigenous sandwiches. That makes selling coffe not a central part of the business hence the reasonable cost, which won't dent your retirement plan nor make you feel miserable. What happened in the Anglosphere (and not only) is fundamentally a habit appropriation without the surrounding conditions to support it and this drives the prices to stupid levels.

Re: Buy Yourself a Latte

#303

If part of your audience consists of people living without much a safety net, that $5 a day adds up. Also, the author's point that saving that much isn't going to be $1 million, but "only" as much as $500,000 then that point rather falls flat. Sure, inflation may decrease the utility of that amount of money, but it will also increase the cost of that latte, so you'll be saving more than just the $5 over time. Finally…

I read this very differently -- if $5/day makes up a significant portion of your safety net spending, then you have much larger problems than the $5 delta your latte is causing. It's not that $5/day doesn't matter to anyone, it's that the people for whom it matters are facing much larger systemic issues that we're ignoring while shaming people for the smallest of luxuries. edit: missing word

However bad the system is, frivolous spending will not help things. However good the system is, it could never bear everyone spending frivolously forever.

So there is really no point to complaining, just aim for a frugal life style because no matter how good or bad the system is this will give you, individually, the best results.

Re: Buy Yourself a Latte

#304

If part of your audience consists of people living without much a safety net, that $5 a day adds up. Also, the author's point that saving that much isn't going to be $1 million, but "only" as much as $500,000 then that point rather falls flat. Sure, inflation may decrease the utility of that amount of money, but it will also increase the cost of that latte, so you'll be saving more than just the $5 over time. Finally…

The point is to focus on the big wins. Save $1000 next time your buy a car and that covers almost a year of $5 lattes every weekday morning. If you overpay on your next car, or negotiate badly on your next job offer, the money you saved by not buying lattes was all for nothing. In other words, major financial decisions vastly outweigh the impact of a daily $5 purchase, so why focus on the small stuff? Yet much financ…

this is an example of a poverty mindset: spend the future today and then hope that some windfall will make up for it.

Sure, this can work, it might also fail spectacularly.

Re: Buy Yourself a Latte

#305
post #186

I grew up in a poor family, could never afford anything unless miracles happened, never went on any trips etc. I later scaled all the way up to much more than I needed as a software developer and lately I'm pretty much down to nothing. The main thing I learned over 42 years of going back and forth is that a warm place to sleep, good health, good food (and coffee) and nice, caring people are priceless. Money is the ul…

> Dropping $5 you don't have on overpriced coffee is proving that it has no power over you.

Buying overpriced stuff you don't really need with money you don't have has to be somewhere in the definition of "money has power over me". For me, to be truly independent means to not need money a) because you have enough and b) because you don't need to compulsively spend it. b) leads to a) btw.

Re: Buy Yourself a Latte

#306
post #3

I think this article misses the point. The daily coffee isn't the only problem with people's spending, but is representative of all the small daily spends that add up without people realising. It's the petrol in your car when you could've walked, it's the extra bar of chocolate that you add to your lunch, it's the daily newspaper you buy. Everything adds up very quickly and the coffee is just one example

> Everything adds up very quickly and the coffee is just one example

Exactly. It's kind of painful to see that the author of the article is simply not mentally equipped to have this conversation yet they have a blog and enough pull (in whatever form) to get this on the HN front page.

Re: Buy Yourself a Latte

#307
post #254
post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Dropping $5 you don't have on overpriced coffee is proving that it has no power over you. Surely spending money you don't have on overpriced things you don't need is _precisely_ the sort of consumerism that proves you're fully bought into the rat race?

No, that would be pretending that saving $5 could make any kind of difference.

Had a 'poor' friend I'd hang with at the University Library. He somehow would get fast food or restaurant food, he worked at a car wash and his uncles cleaning company.

Met him in 2014, and in 2017 he had a panic when he was kicked out of his house. He came over for a moment and asked for any spare change, gave him ~5-10$.

I was eating raw ramen and protein shakes, always cooked at home. Saved like crazy(and worked). No college debt. Graduated, life is good.

5$/day is enough to pay for many months of rent.

>pretending that saving $5 could make any kind of difference.

This is the difference between the wealthy and poor. The poor can't visualize that 5$/day-> thousands of dollars.

Re: Buy Yourself a Latte

#308

Counterpoint: The debate is framed as "$5 a day is a waste--put it into your piggy bank every day and drink office sludge instead". I instead say that yes, the office coffee still tastes like fertilizer, but I still think $5 a day for a latte is waste because I can make some excellent coffee at my desk for about a dollar a day using an inexpensive French Press, a hand-grinder (or grinding the beans that morning at ho…

You're exchanging time for money. It's a highly common tradeoff. Prep, brewing, and cleanup amounts can work up to around $3-4 of opportunity cost for a tech professional. Not to mention, french press coffee is not quite equivalent to a latte. Also, I recommend 5 minutes steeping, personally. ;)

>You're exchanging time for money.

I have never gotten fast coffee and thought- Driving/walking here, waiting in line, paying, and waiting for my order is faster than homemade Drip Coffee.

Re: Buy Yourself a Latte

#309

Earlier quoted context omitted.

that $5 a day adds up The article isn't advocating that you buy a coffee every single day. It's saying a. focus on larger issues and b. it's okay to do a little self care and a little self indulgence. I sometimes bought myself a fucking coffee of some sort at Starbuck's back when I was homeless. I needed the caffeine to help treat health issues. It let me plug in for an hour and get some electricity for my tablet, pl…

There was an illustrative article on this topic a few years ago [1]: "It’s not like the sacrifice will result in improved circumstances; the thing holding me back isn’t that I blow five bucks at Wendy’s. It’s that now that I have proven that I am a Poor Person that is all that I am or ever will be. It is not worth it to me to live a bleak life devoid of small pleasures so that one day I can make a single large purcha…

> Impoverished people aren't poor because they occasionally buy coffee

Impoverished people might be poor because they take everything literally and can't see the big picture though. Yes, frivolous spending absolutely has something to do with poverty. It's so clear and obvious and when I look at every example of a person that I know that could be called poor vs someone that is rich there is the same pattern: The poor ones HATE doing what's necessary, work, personal grooming, cleaning, eating healthy, working out whatever but they LOVE spending money they don't have on things they don't need and that will not make them happy. If you try to stop them from spending, they suffer. But if they spend it's the hedonistic treadmill: increase amount and GOTO 10.

Rich people I know LOVE to work. They would work for free. They get up and go work and if you stop them they suffer. The rich people I know HATE spending money. It causes them physical discomfort. IF they spend, they consider it for quite some time, look for deals or wait for special offers. Subsequently they are very happy with their purchases and keep them maintained and in good order.

> They're poor because there's an economic system currently in place which is slurping as much wealth away from as many people as possible to feed it to just a few.

None of this is true. We are getting wealthier and wealthier from this magnificent system that lifted BILLIONS out of poverty the last 50 years.

> small pleasures

This is a perfect example of the poverty mindset: consume to be happy. There is enough pleasure to be had without spending a single dime, in fact, the most fulfilling activities will net you money directly or indirectly. It's possible to be content without spending money all the time. If you think that the happiness in your life comes down to small or large purchases you are already on the wrong path. Just turn back.

And by the way, the story of lotto winners is instructive: you simply can't spend your way out of the poverty mindset.

Re: Buy Yourself a Latte

#310

If part of your audience consists of people living without much a safety net, that $5 a day adds up. Also, the author's point that saving that much isn't going to be $1 million, but "only" as much as $500,000 then that point rather falls flat. Sure, inflation may decrease the utility of that amount of money, but it will also increase the cost of that latte, so you'll be saving more than just the $5 over time. Finally…

it all depends on timing, ie the investment phase...

If you are in your early 20s than yes every penny invested counts more given a 40 year plan to invest for retirement as the interest compounded adds up.

However, those at the end of their retirement investment plan say in the last ten years its a different story where $5 a day will not matter much in terms of increasing investment funds for retirement.

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