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Motel 6 to Pay $12M after Improperly Giving Guest Lists to ICE

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Re: Motel 6 to Pay $12M after Improperly Giving Guest Lists to ICE

#111

Post by mikeash »

tantalor wrote: post #72
gamblor956 wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

ICE didn't commit a crime...It is not illegal for government agencies to request information from individuals or companies. Nor did Motel 6 for that matter. It was hit with a civil lawsuit...

Not illegal, sure, but the lack of warrant may (should) mean the information is inadmissible in court. It's no different than if they stole it.

In this case it would be immigration court, which is a civil proceeding where the standard of guilt is merely a preponderance of evidence and the defendant has no right to a lawyer if they can’t afford one. I doubt admissibility will actually come up much.

Re: Motel 6 to Pay $12M after Improperly Giving Guest Lists to ICE

#112

Post by mikeash »

ancorevard wrote: post #32
shawnz wrote: post #2

> "Motel 6's actions tore families apart and violated the privacy rights of tens of thousands of Washingtonians," What? I'm pretty sure ICE's actions were what tore those families apart. Why aren't they being punished for illegally requesting the data without a warrant? Maybe the Motel 6 employees who wrongfully gave the data felt pressured, given that ICE is a government agency just like the DOJ?

"I'm pretty sure ICE's actions were what tore those families apart." ICE only enforce the laws that already exists. So only two possible parties are at fault here: 1. Congress, if the current laws are bad. 2. Parents, if they are in violation of the law.

If only that were so. There’s no law requiring ICE to target Hispanics, hassle people speaking Spanish in public, or hold US citizens for months. In fact, the law says they can’t. This doesn’t seem to stop them.

Re: Motel 6 to Pay $12M after Improperly Giving Guest Lists to ICE

#113

Post by dragonwriter »

tantalor wrote: post #72
gamblor956 wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

ICE didn't commit a crime...It is not illegal for government agencies to request information from individuals or companies. Nor did Motel 6 for that matter. It was hit with a civil lawsuit...

Not illegal, sure, but the lack of warrant may (should) mean the information is inadmissible in court. It's no different than if they stole it.

> Not illegal, sure, but the lack of warrant may (should) mean the information is inadmissible in court

No, getting evidence voluntarily from any party (or even involuntarily and illegally from a third party!) doesn't trigger the exclusionary rule. No rights triggering the rule are violated in the voluntary case, and if the government violated A’s rights but then use the evidence only against B, the rule doesn't apply either.

And, of course, this is ICE, and the exclusionary rule only applies in criminal cases, not in deportation (civil removal) cases, so the question is largely moot, anyway, even if they were doing this for evidence rather than just to locate targets.

Re: Motel 6 to Pay $12M after Improperly Giving Guest Lists to ICE

#114

Post by dragonwriter »

gamblor956 wrote: post #90
tantalor wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not illegal, sure, but the lack of warrant may (should) mean the information is inadmissible in court. It's no different than if they stole it.

If the information was the type covered by an expectation of privacy, then the lack of a warrant likely would make it inadmissible...until ICE asks the judge for a warrant, for a date range covered by the specific enforcement action at issue, and comes back to court with the now lawfully-obtained information.

> If the information was the type covered by an expectation of privacy, then the lack of a warrant likely would make it inadmissible

In a criminal trial, of the person who had the legal expectation of privacy, which in most cases is the person with possession of the documents, etc., not the subject of the documents, where those are different.

But, in any cases, not in most civil proceedings, and explicitly not in civil removal (deportation) proceedings, which is what ICE is mostly concerned with here, so the Constitution is essentially irrelevant as there is no practical remedy available for violations (which is one reason states have adopted rules against information sharing with immigration officials.)

Re: Motel 6 to Pay $12M after Improperly Giving Guest Lists to ICE

#115

Post by prolepunk »

YeahSureWhyNot wrote: post #59
wan23 wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be fair, it's not 1 million of anyone entering the country illegally every year.

70k arrested for illegal border crossing in march only. I would say it's definitely more than a million if you count the ones who didn't get arrested

First of all, could you please directly link to the source.

Second even if this number is accurate, it is misleading and I will attempt to put it in perspective.

People are coming to us border to claim asylum. They are unable to do that because border agents are understaffed (it's been like that since 2015 during Obama administration) and can only accept so many applications.

In the meantime they have to live in appalling conditions waiting for months to just apply for asylum, in this situation some people choose to cross 'illegally'. Source: https://www.gimletmedia.com/the-cut-on-tuesdays/the-women-of...

Re: Motel 6 to Pay $12M after Improperly Giving Guest Lists to ICE

#116

Post by lamarpye »

dragonwriter wrote: post #85
alistairSH wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But they're looking for illegal immigrants, not Latinos. There's a certain amount of overlap between the groups, but they are not the same set.

> But they're looking for illegal immigrants, not Latinos. They're supposed to be looking for illegal immigrants, but that doesn't mean that's what they are doing.

What were they doing then? I would love to hear your theory.

Re: Motel 6 to Pay $12M after Improperly Giving Guest Lists to ICE

#117

Post by Hello71 »

YeahSureWhyNot wrote: post #59
wan23 wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be fair, it's not 1 million of anyone entering the country illegally every year.

70k arrested for illegal border crossing in march only. I would say it's definitely more than a million if you count the ones who didn't get arrested

except there's no need to make shit up, the CBP conveniently also publishes statistics regarding the total number of apprehensions every year, broken down by month. unlike you, who presumably got the information from Trump on Twitter, I will post my source: https://www.cbp.gov/sites/default/files/assets/documents/201...

the total number of apprehensions every year for the past 12 fiscal years has been less than 1 million per year. and no, you cannot assume that the number of people of people that didn't get apprehended is some arbitrarily selected multiple of that number, because one, reputable sources estimate that the number of actual individuals entering the country is on the same order of magnitude as the number of apprehensions (because many people are apprehended more than once), and two, because that's completely moronic.

Re: Motel 6 to Pay $12M after Improperly Giving Guest Lists to ICE

#118

Post by thatoneuser »

Hello71 wrote: post #117
YeahSureWhyNot wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

70k arrested for illegal border crossing in march only. I would say it's definitely more than a million if you count the ones who didn't get arrested

except there's no need to make shit up, the CBP conveniently also publishes statistics regarding the total number of apprehensions every year, broken down by month. unlike you, who presumably got the information from Trump on Twitter, I will post my source: https://www.cbp.gov/sites/default/files/assets/documents/201... the total number of apprehensions every year for the past 12 fiscal years has been less than 1 mil…

Sigh. So where's your source that apprehensions ~= illegal entries? Intuitively it makes sense to me that more people get in than are caught, but I don't have data. Nor do I see how you can accurately count the number of people you didn't catch...

Re: Motel 6 to Pay $12M after Improperly Giving Guest Lists to ICE

#119

Post by thatoneuser »

bradlys wrote: post #15

Why would ICE run "latino-sounding" names through and not just all names through whatever ICE database they're cross-referencing? Did they get a 10,000 page print out instead of a spreadsheet file? (why not Scan + OCR + cross reference with database - would be way faster) Just seems like ICE employees are only targeting latinos... intentionally. And that's the most bothering part of this to me. We're cool with Swedes…

Seems reasonable to look more heavily on Latinos. Not that I agree with it but if your jobs success is determined by metrics, then you're gonna go for the lowest fruit. We're not that concerned with illegals from halfway around the world were concerned with the southern border, hence us building a wall just ok the south.

Again I don't agree but it's not hard to see why an agent would make that particular decision if they did.

Re: Motel 6 to Pay $12M after Improperly Giving Guest Lists to ICE

#120

Post by YeahSureWhyNot »

prolepunk wrote: post #115
YeahSureWhyNot wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

70k arrested for illegal border crossing in march only. I would say it's definitely more than a million if you count the ones who didn't get arrested

First of all, could you please directly link to the source. Second even if this number is accurate, it is misleading and I will attempt to put it in perspective. People are coming to us border to claim asylum. They are unable to do that because border agents are understaffed (it's been like that since 2015 during Obama administration) and can only accept so many applications. In the meantime they have to live in appa…

here you go https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration
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