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Show HN: I made a platform for journalists to “open source” their fact checking

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Re: Show HN: I made a platform for journalists to “open source” their fact checking

#281

Post by stcredzero »

tptacek wrote: post #272
stcredzero wrote: post #246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Regarding the Boston rally and the south Asian candidate: you're talking about Shiva Ayyadurai, the guy who (in my understanding of reports, which could be erroneous) sues people who contradict his claim of having invented electronic mail, has (to my understanding, which could be flawed) appeared on white supremacist podcasts, and used (as I understand it, based on reports) a caricature of himself as Pepe the Frog in…

Sure, in this case, "white supremacist" might not be the technical term for the bigotry involved. And, regarding the many meanings of kek, Pepe, and all that (and aside from the fact that the person who asked him to "bless" the statue is a white supremacist ) --- sure, if you say so, dude.

might not be the technical term for the bigotry involved.

If you look at the signs, there was a black man concerned with the identitarian nature of Black Lives Matter. Are you trying to tell me that he's bigoted? Rather, I think he's concerned with bigotry masquerading as activism.

aside from the fact that the person who asked him to "bless" the statue

Again, this is weak "guilt by association." I have no idea if that other party is a bigot or not. It doesn't matter. Again, it's narrative generation, with the purpose of effective silencing by tarring.

Silicon Valley is largely encased in a bubble produced by and consisting of accusation, name calling, and narrative pushing. The purpose of this is to gain the power to demonize and silence people. The devious thing about it, is that more outrage is generated when the accusations are false, and that fuels more noise and breaks down discourse even further.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rE3j_RHkqJc

sure, if you say so, dude.

In history, there have been many examples of arrogant groups who achieved economic success and power, became arrogant, and got trapped in bubbles of perception.

http://brucefwebster.com/2008/04/15/the-wetware-crisis-the-t...

They all had disparaging names for outsiders/underlings and thought of themselves as "betters." Most of the time, they thought of themselves as benevolent and benefactors. History is pretty clear about the lessons when those groups start imposing their misguided will on the people.

Re: Show HN: I made a platform for journalists to “open source” their fact checking

#282

Post by tptacek »

stcredzero wrote: post #281
tptacek wrote: post #272

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, in this case, "white supremacist" might not be the technical term for the bigotry involved. And, regarding the many meanings of kek, Pepe, and all that (and aside from the fact that the person who asked him to "bless" the statue is a white supremacist ) --- sure, if you say so, dude.

might not be the technical term for the bigotry involved. If you look at the signs, there was a black man concerned with the identitarian nature of Black Lives Matter. Are you trying to tell me that he's bigoted? Rather, I think he's concerned with bigotry masquerading as activism. aside from the fact that the person who asked him to "bless" the statue Again, this is weak "guilt by association." I have no idea if tha…

If you think agreeing to appear in a video with a white supremacist and joking about his "kek" statue doesn't paint at least part of a picture, and that suggesting otherwise is "guilt by association", that's on you. To me, it's more telling that your best, leading example of a place where the media got its facts wrong is Shiva Ayyadurai is also telling, and also paints part of a picture (not one I've described on the thread so far, just to be clear).

Re: Show HN: I made a platform for journalists to “open source” their fact checking

#283

Post by 99052882514569 »

matt4077 wrote: post #252
99052882514569 wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He either invented sources or made up quotes from real people he never met. How do you expect this platform to remedy that?

There were a few tells one could find, at least after the fact. For example, he described a women locking her door „with three turns of the key“. That’s something that works on German locks, where the bolt keeps advancing. But the incident was supposed to have happened in some southern US state. And in the US, most locks only allow a quarter turn. I asked specifically about the prevalence of different lock types in t…

The three turns is only a salient mess-up in light of other, much more damning evidence. On its own, it's credibly explainable as an honest mistake (I was there but who counts these things? I just assumed).

Re: Show HN: I made a platform for journalists to “open source” their fact checking

#284

Post by devinplatt »

JoelMcCracken wrote: post #263

This reminds me a bit of an application I wanted to build many years ago: A platform for collections of arguments. For example, the question "are humans contributing to global warming?" Allow crowd-submitted answers. Collect information about facts cited (similar to how this works). Mostly-rational people can be swayed by evidence and arguments, yet often disagree with each other because they doubt the truth of the o…

Hi Joel. In case you didn't see my top level comment (it's buried quite low), I'm working on a similar project to document evidence for and against claims: https://www.wikiclaim.org

The tech is dumb (just MediaWiki on Heroku), but it's been sufficient to allow me to spend several hundred hours creating about 200 wiki pages so far.

Re: Show HN: I made a platform for journalists to “open source” their fact checking

#285

Post by atoav »

mikedilger wrote: post #229

I appreciate the recognition that there is a problem in journalism. But I'm afraid that the fundamental problems are problems in the nature of humans and aren't ameniable to this sort of solution. Those problems include: 1) Many people choose to believe what feels right to them, rather than dispassionately seeing things for what they are. Unfortunately there are a great many of people that do this regularly, and they…

The answer to 1 most likely lies in education and (more broadly) reduction of economic segregation. You will not save everbody with this, but the majority.

I would divide media roughly into three classes:

1. The worst: those who make up things with no base in reality at all

2. The standard: those who don’t make up things willfully, but manipulate through selective focus (leaving out certain topics while pushing others)

3. The good: those who carefully try not to lie and try to avoid selection based manipulation, while clearly marking the border between facts and opinion.

This concept would only really prevent the behaviour of the worst – IF they would care about getting caught in a lie. The fact that there _are_ watchblogs that point out lies with no effect shows probably that only technology is not a practical solution.

What kinda works is having a national press council that has the power to sue media plattforms to print corrections when they get things wrong. Even the most uneducated would think about changing the newspaper when ever other issue starts with a correction notice. Let alone the advertisement partners.

Technology like this is cool, but must always be emmbeded in some powerful institution.

Re: Show HN: I made a platform for journalists to “open source” their fact checking

#286

Post by stcredzero »

tptacek wrote: post #282
stcredzero wrote: post #281

Earlier quoted context omitted.

might not be the technical term for the bigotry involved. If you look at the signs, there was a black man concerned with the identitarian nature of Black Lives Matter. Are you trying to tell me that he's bigoted? Rather, I think he's concerned with bigotry masquerading as activism. aside from the fact that the person who asked him to "bless" the statue Again, this is weak "guilt by association." I have no idea if tha…

If you think agreeing to appear in a video with a white supremacist and joking about his "kek" statue doesn't paint at least part of a picture, and that suggesting otherwise is "guilt by association", that's on you. To me, it's more telling that your best, leading example of a place where the media got its facts wrong is Shiva Ayyadurai is also telling, and also paints part of a picture (not one I've described on the…

If you think agreeing to appear in a video with a white supremacist and joking about his "kek" statue doesn't paint at least part of a picture

"Paint part of a picture," Is just another way of saying "Narrative."

To me, it's more telling that your best, leading example of a place where the media got its facts wrong is Shiva Ayyadurai is also telling

So it doesn't matter that they got the facts wrong, because the people they are getting the facts wrong about are "bad" people. Sorry, but that's morally bankrupt. That's the classic moral stance to justify propaganda. Who in the past took actions against people they thought were generally bad, facts be damned? You appear to be in an epistemological calamity. You seem to be trapped in a bubble, where proof invalidating the bubble is sequestered through unsupported narratives.

also paints part of a picture (not one I've described on the thread so far, just to be clear)

So then you threaten to tar me by association as well? Again, it's this pushing of a narrative with no proof.

(Just to be clear, all identitarians are in the wrong. All politics by violence is bad. All politics by intimidation is equally bad, as is disdain for facts and the truth.)

Re: Show HN: I made a platform for journalists to “open source” their fact checking

#288

Post by Fnoord »

v_lisivka wrote: post #256
Fnoord wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you back this up with examples?

Examples of hoaxes backed by Russian government trolls, or examples of abuse of Wikipedia and other sites by Russian government trolls? I have both.

The latter.

Re: Show HN: I made a platform for journalists to “open source” their fact checking

#289

Post by tptacek »

stcredzero wrote: post #286
tptacek wrote: post #282

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you think agreeing to appear in a video with a white supremacist and joking about his "kek" statue doesn't paint at least part of a picture, and that suggesting otherwise is "guilt by association", that's on you. To me, it's more telling that your best, leading example of a place where the media got its facts wrong is Shiva Ayyadurai is also telling, and also paints part of a picture (not one I've described on the…

If you think agreeing to appear in a video with a white supremacist and joking about his "kek" statue doesn't paint at least part of a picture "Paint part of a picture," Is just another way of saying "Narrative." To me, it's more telling that your best, leading example of a place where the media got its facts wrong is Shiva Ayyadurai is also telling So it doesn't matter that they got the facts wrong, because the peop…

I am simply going to point out again that your best example of the media getting its facts wrong is a video in which "Dr. SHIVA Ayyadurai,PhD(M.I.T.) Inventor of Email" --- a repeat InfoWars guest! --- complains about a BuzzFeed listicle-grade story that is itself at pains to point out that the (very few) attendees of an anti-left demonstration in Boston were not all white supremacists.

As you've no doubt surmised: not many people are interested in following you down "Hard News Network" video rabbit holes, for the same reason that even though the big-bad-scary-media reports it to be so, we're also not all that interested in what Alex Jones has to say about the Sandy Hook victims or the effectiveness of vaccines.

As I said, the picture you're painting of yourself is not the same picture Shiva Ayyadurai has painted of himself.

But I can sum both up as: "play stupid games, win stupid prizes".

Re: Show HN: I made a platform for journalists to “open source” their fact checking

#290

Post by tptacek »

tptacek wrote: post #289
stcredzero wrote: post #286

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you think agreeing to appear in a video with a white supremacist and joking about his "kek" statue doesn't paint at least part of a picture "Paint part of a picture," Is just another way of saying "Narrative." To me, it's more telling that your best, leading example of a place where the media got its facts wrong is Shiva Ayyadurai is also telling So it doesn't matter that they got the facts wrong, because the peop…

I am simply going to point out again that your best example of the media getting its facts wrong is a video in which "Dr. SHIVA Ayyadurai,PhD(M.I.T.) Inventor of Email" --- a repeat InfoWars guest! --- complains about a BuzzFeed listicle-grade story that is itself at pains to point out that the (very few) attendees of an anti-left demonstration in Boston were not all white supremacists. As you've no doubt surmised: n…

By the way: it is my understanding, a personal, subjective understanding based on reportage and accounts from other people that I have read, presented here as a statement of my own opinion and not a relation of specific facts, that the claim that Shiva Ayyadurai invented email is laughable.
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