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Motel 6 to Pay $12M after Improperly Giving Guest Lists to ICE

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Re: Motel 6 to Pay $12M after Improperly Giving Guest Lists to ICE

#41

Post by shawnz »

ancorevard wrote: post #32
shawnz wrote: post #2

> "Motel 6's actions tore families apart and violated the privacy rights of tens of thousands of Washingtonians," What? I'm pretty sure ICE's actions were what tore those families apart. Why aren't they being punished for illegally requesting the data without a warrant? Maybe the Motel 6 employees who wrongfully gave the data felt pressured, given that ICE is a government agency just like the DOJ?

"I'm pretty sure ICE's actions were what tore those families apart." ICE only enforce the laws that already exists. So only two possible parties are at fault here: 1. Congress, if the current laws are bad. 2. Parents, if they are in violation of the law.

Requesting Motel 6 to break the law is clearly far outside the scope of enforcing the laws that already exist.

Re: Motel 6 to Pay $12M after Improperly Giving Guest Lists to ICE

#42

Post by caprese »

wan23 wrote: post #37
basic6 wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Probably because it's not 1 million Swedes entering the country illegally every year.

To be fair, it's not 1 million of anyone entering the country illegally every year.

To be fair, it was clear to me that was hyperbole and it got the point across, which is the purpose of language.

Re: Motel 6 to Pay $12M after Improperly Giving Guest Lists to ICE

#43

Post by patrickg_zill »

"ICE agents would circle the names that looked Latino-sounding and ran those names through a database and then would detain individuals based on those random checks."

This was in no way unreasonable. If you were looking for people who were Asian you would focus more on last names of Li, Park Ajinomori rather than Berkowitz or Adams.

Re: Motel 6 to Pay $12M after Improperly Giving Guest Lists to ICE

#44

Post by patrickg_zill »

shawnz wrote: post #2

> "Motel 6's actions tore families apart and violated the privacy rights of tens of thousands of Washingtonians," What? I'm pretty sure ICE's actions were what tore those families apart. Why aren't they being punished for illegally requesting the data without a warrant? Maybe the Motel 6 employees who wrongfully gave the data felt pressured, given that ICE is a government agency just like the DOJ?

The person who should ultimately be blamed is the person who is illegally in the US.

Why blame the cops for the arrest of a criminal?

Re: Motel 6 to Pay $12M after Improperly Giving Guest Lists to ICE

#45

Post by bredren »

gamblor956 wrote: post #28
bredren wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Part of the trouble is ICE's "requests" are not always purported as requests. See recent attempt in New York by ICE agent that he had a legally enforceable warrant and that his goal of detaining a vehicle occupant was not simply a request. [1] The ICE officer in this case even quotes a statute that implied the driver might face penalties for not complying with the officer's demands. Given this behavior, I wonder what…

If ICE had compelled Motel 6 to hand over the lists, that would be a very different thing and we would be having a very different conversation. But that's not what happened, and let's not pretend like that is what happened. ICE asked nicely, expecting to be turned down by Motel 6 like most other hotel chains did. But Motel 6 went along with the request without any sort of coercion and in fact in violation of local co…

Did you watch the video on the wapo article I linked to, and if so, do you think that officer was asking nicely when he spoke to that driver?

Re: Motel 6 to Pay $12M after Improperly Giving Guest Lists to ICE

#46

Post by Frondo »

gamblor956 wrote: post #28
bredren wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Part of the trouble is ICE's "requests" are not always purported as requests. See recent attempt in New York by ICE agent that he had a legally enforceable warrant and that his goal of detaining a vehicle occupant was not simply a request. [1] The ICE officer in this case even quotes a statute that implied the driver might face penalties for not complying with the officer's demands. Given this behavior, I wonder what…

If ICE had compelled Motel 6 to hand over the lists, that would be a very different thing and we would be having a very different conversation. But that's not what happened, and let's not pretend like that is what happened. ICE asked nicely, expecting to be turned down by Motel 6 like most other hotel chains did. But Motel 6 went along with the request without any sort of coercion and in fact in violation of local co…

Do we know how ICE asked for these records? Because, from everything else I've ever seen about law enforcement making such requests, there's nothing nice about it, and there's everything coercive about it.

And it's a scary kind of coercion because they do have the force of the state backing them up, in a way that plays on our built-in desire to please authority, built-in desire to not rock the boat, and built-in fear of consequences of the crushing weight of the state pummeling down on us.

People generally regard law enforcement with a mix of fear and antipathy, because we know that, despite the checks and balances that exist, they can ruin lives and face no consequence for doing so.

So when ICE comes and asks, however nicely they may actually phrase it (though I don't expect they said "please" and "thank you,"), they're also coming at these hoteliers with a very big stick.

It's just shitty that the hoteliers did, in fact, cave and hand over this data.

Re: Motel 6 to Pay $12M after Improperly Giving Guest Lists to ICE

#47

Post by dragonwriter »

sonnyblarney wrote: post #34
dragonwriter wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Could it be considered entrapment if Motel 6 was pressured into giving ICE the information? No, because ICE agents are not agents of the State of Washington, and the prosecution was by the State for violations of State law. ICE agents are, in terms of entrapment, no different than ISIS agents would be in this case. EDIT: Also no, because entrapment is a criminal defense, and this was a civil consumer protection cas…

"ICE agents are, in terms of entrapment, no different than ISIS agents would be in this case." ICE agents have some degree of lawful authority legally vested in them at some level of American governance, so it stands to reason that individuals can make the claim they felt 'required by some law' to do as that agency apparently behoved of them. Especially if ICE were making statements along the lines of 'you're legally…

> Especially if ICE were making statements along the lines of 'you're legally required to do this or that', then there's an issue here.

If they were—which no account of this case I’ve seen has suggested—there is certainly an ethical issue, but not an issue that should negate Motel 6’s liability under the state law at issue here. In fact, if it's employees were not aware of the prohibition on turning the material over without a warrant, and this were susceptible to social engineering indicating that they should do so, that would seem squarely to be Motel 6’s responsibility.

Re: Motel 6 to Pay $12M after Improperly Giving Guest Lists to ICE

#48

Post by ErikVandeWater »

staplers wrote: post #38
basic6 wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Probably because it's not 1 million Swedes entering the country illegally every year.

The only known terrorists to be apprehended coming overland into America came from the North.

But stopping terrorism is not the only purpose of ICE.

Re: Motel 6 to Pay $12M after Improperly Giving Guest Lists to ICE

#49

Post by Scoundreller »

lixtra wrote: post #40
matt4077 wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are fined for improperly handing over data. It seems we have already set that standard in law.

So who from the federal government is charged for their part of the crime?

Its taxpayers of course.

Re: Motel 6 to Pay $12M after Improperly Giving Guest Lists to ICE

#50

Post by [deleted] »

dragonwriter wrote: post #17
whoopdedo wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>It certainly wasn't ethical So someone can act unethically, reap the benefits of it, be caught red-handed, and suffer no consequences. Sounds like a loophole in the justice system to me. More to the point, now that we've seen it happen once what has been done to prevent it from happening again?

> So someone can act unethically, reap the benefits of it, be caught red-handed, and suffer no consequences. > Sounds like a loophole in the justice system to me. No, it's the fundamental distinction between what is illegal and what is unethical, which is a bit more than a “loophole”. It may be that it should be illegal for ICE to ask for certain information outside of the circumstances where it has a warrant, and th…

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