Motel 6 to Pay $12M after Improperly Giving Guest Lists to ICE • Hacker News Board

Re: Motel 6 to Pay $12M after Improperly Giving Guest Lists to ICE

#11

Post by dragonwriter » Fri, Apr 05, 2019, 7:09 PM UTC

shawnz wrote: post #8

mey wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How was it illegal for ICE to request the data? It certainly wasn't ethical, but what is right and what is legal are not the same thing. Hell it sounds like the only law broken according to the article was a Washington State consumer protection law. Hence the settlement is against Motel 6 and not against ICE.

Perhaps it's not illegal by the letter of the law, but it certainly seems like a major injustice to me. Could it be considered entrapment if Motel 6 was pressured into giving ICE the information?

> Could it be considered entrapment if Motel 6 was pressured into giving ICE the information?

No, because ICE agents are not agents of the State of Washington, and the prosecution was by the State for violations of State law. ICE agents are, in terms of entrapment, no different than ISIS agents would be in this case.

EDIT: Also no, because entrapment is a criminal defense, and this was a civil consumer protection case.

Re: Motel 6 to Pay $12M after Improperly Giving Guest Lists to ICE

#12

Post by whoopdedo » Fri, Apr 05, 2019, 7:10 PM UTC

mey wrote: post #7

shawnz wrote: post #2

> "Motel 6's actions tore families apart and violated the privacy rights of tens of thousands of Washingtonians," What? I'm pretty sure ICE's actions were what tore those families apart. Why aren't they being punished for illegally requesting the data without a warrant? Maybe the Motel 6 employees who wrongfully gave the data felt pressured, given that ICE is a government agency just like the DOJ?

How was it illegal for ICE to request the data? It certainly wasn't ethical, but what is right and what is legal are not the same thing. Hell it sounds like the only law broken according to the article was a Washington State consumer protection law. Hence the settlement is against Motel 6 and not against ICE.

>It certainly wasn't ethical

So someone can act unethically, reap the benefits of it, be caught red-handed, and suffer no consequences.

Sounds like a loophole in the justice system to me. More to the point, now that we've seen it happen once what has been done to prevent it from happening again?

Re: Motel 6 to Pay $12M after Improperly Giving Guest Lists to ICE

#13

Post by scarejunba » Fri, Apr 05, 2019, 7:11 PM UTC

mey wrote: post #7

shawnz wrote: post #2

> "Motel 6's actions tore families apart and violated the privacy rights of tens of thousands of Washingtonians," What? I'm pretty sure ICE's actions were what tore those families apart. Why aren't they being punished for illegally requesting the data without a warrant? Maybe the Motel 6 employees who wrongfully gave the data felt pressured, given that ICE is a government agency just like the DOJ?

How was it illegal for ICE to request the data? It certainly wasn't ethical, but what is right and what is legal are not the same thing. Hell it sounds like the only law broken according to the article was a Washington State consumer protection law. Hence the settlement is against Motel 6 and not against ICE.

Honestly it feels like it should be illegal. If a cop or a cop-simulacrum walks up to me and says "You're going to jail unless you give me this" I'm probably going to give them that. I don't want to go to jail and I know they'll cook something up about resisting arrest if I don't play along.

Re: Motel 6 to Pay $12M after Improperly Giving Guest Lists to ICE

#14

Post by Miner49er » Fri, Apr 05, 2019, 7:14 PM UTC

scarejunba wrote: post #13

mey wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How was it illegal for ICE to request the data? It certainly wasn't ethical, but what is right and what is legal are not the same thing. Hell it sounds like the only law broken according to the article was a Washington State consumer protection law. Hence the settlement is against Motel 6 and not against ICE.

Honestly it feels like it should be illegal. If a cop or a cop-simulacrum walks up to me and says "You're going to jail unless you give me this" I'm probably going to give them that. I don't want to go to jail and I know they'll cook something up about resisting arrest if I don't play along.

If the state of Washington made it illegal it couldn't effect ICE though could it, since they're a part of the federal government?

Re: Motel 6 to Pay $12M after Improperly Giving Guest Lists to ICE

#15

Post by bradlys » Fri, Apr 05, 2019, 7:16 PM UTC

Why would ICE run "latino-sounding" names through and not just all names through whatever ICE database they're cross-referencing? Did they get a 10,000 page print out instead of a spreadsheet file? (why not Scan + OCR + cross reference with database - would be way faster)

Just seems like ICE employees are only targeting latinos... intentionally. And that's the most bothering part of this to me. We're cool with Swedes overstaying their welcome...

Re: Motel 6 to Pay $12M after Improperly Giving Guest Lists to ICE

#16

Post by matt4077 » Fri, Apr 05, 2019, 7:17 PM UTC

pnutjam wrote: post #3

Good, hopefully this deters others

I, too, hope this will deter other companies from illegally handing over the customers‘ data for frivolous fishing expeditions by law enforcement.

Re: Motel 6 to Pay $12M after Improperly Giving Guest Lists to ICE

#17

Post by dragonwriter » Fri, Apr 05, 2019, 7:18 PM UTC

whoopdedo wrote: post #12

mey wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How was it illegal for ICE to request the data? It certainly wasn't ethical, but what is right and what is legal are not the same thing. Hell it sounds like the only law broken according to the article was a Washington State consumer protection law. Hence the settlement is against Motel 6 and not against ICE.

>It certainly wasn't ethical So someone can act unethically, reap the benefits of it, be caught red-handed, and suffer no consequences. Sounds like a loophole in the justice system to me. More to the point, now that we've seen it happen once what has been done to prevent it from happening again?

> So someone can act unethically, reap the benefits of it, be caught red-handed, and suffer no consequences.

> Sounds like a loophole in the justice system to me.

No, it's the fundamental distinction between what is illegal and what is unethical, which is a bit more than a “loophole”.

It may be that it should be illegal for ICE to ask for certain information outside of the circumstances where it has a warrant, and this may be in that category. Or perhaps ICE should be legally prohibited from asking without a warrant when there is, as here, a state law prohibition on the person they ask giving them the information.

Or maybe the law should just disband ICE.

But none of that is the law now.

Re: Motel 6 to Pay $12M after Improperly Giving Guest Lists to ICE

#18

Post by throwaway287391 » Fri, Apr 05, 2019, 7:21 PM UTC

matt4077 wrote: post #16

pnutjam wrote: post #3

Good, hopefully this deters others

I, too, hope this will deter other companies from illegally handing over the customers‘ data for frivolous fishing expeditions by law enforcement.

Is GP getting downvoted because we're assuming this isn't what they meant?

Re: Motel 6 to Pay $12M after Improperly Giving Guest Lists to ICE

#19

Post by sonnyblarney » Fri, Apr 05, 2019, 7:23 PM UTC

bradlys wrote: post #15

Why would ICE run "latino-sounding" names through and not just all names through whatever ICE database they're cross-referencing? Did they get a 10,000 page print out instead of a spreadsheet file? (why not Scan + OCR + cross reference with database - would be way faster) Just seems like ICE employees are only targeting latinos... intentionally. And that's the most bothering part of this to me. We're cool with Swedes…

The article is misleading and there's no indication there was any intent to target Latinos, rather, as a result of the handover, Latinos ended up being targeted i.e. if Latinos are more likely on ICE's target list (entirely plausible) than this is going to happen after cross referencing. Edit: re-reading now and it indicates ICE was highlighting Latino names specifically.

Re: Motel 6 to Pay $12M after Improperly Giving Guest Lists to ICE

#20

Post by KorematsuFred » Fri, Apr 05, 2019, 7:23 PM UTC

bradlys wrote: post #15

Why would ICE run "latino-sounding" names through and not just all names through whatever ICE database they're cross-referencing? Did they get a 10,000 page print out instead of a spreadsheet file? (why not Scan + OCR + cross reference with database - would be way faster) Just seems like ICE employees are only targeting latinos... intentionally. And that's the most bothering part of this to me. We're cool with Swedes…

Well anyone who has dealt with ICE, Border Patrol this does not even remotely surprise me. I had a French-American friend who went to France without his daughter's American passport. When he returned back the Agent did not even ask to see the little girls passport.

Had this guy been Latino he would be called a child smuggler.