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Making Video Games Is Not a Dream Job

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Re: Making Video Games Is Not a Dream Job

#391

Post by hnarn »

chrisco255 wrote: post #206
jimmy1 wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The easiest way to debunk your claim that it is purely propaganda is to give easy counter-examples. In this case, may I present to you New York's finest: The MTA and LIRR. where rampant abuse of the system is everywhere and somehow, amazingly, have one of the highest disability claim rates out of any group of workers in the country. Either working for the MTA or LIRR is one of the most dangerous jobs in the country,…

An "employee owned organization" seems like a better alternative to unions, in my opinion.

> An "employee owned organization" seems like a better alternative to unions, in my opinion.

This statement is completely and utterly nonsensical to anyone that has even a shallow understanding of the history of labour struggles and unionizing.

Re: Making Video Games Is Not a Dream Job

#392

Post by r_smart »

vkou wrote: post #379
r_smart wrote: post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fair enough. I'm used to union arrangements where membership is required for the given profession, which is pretty common in the US. There's been a movement to right to work, but even then, the non-union employees are forced to abide by the union negotiated contract, which is bullshit.

> There's been a movement to right to work By which you mean, there's been a movement by employers towards the right to work for less. > but even then, the non-union employees are forced to abide by the union negotiated contract, which is bullshit. What's bullshit is that non-union employees get the same benefits that a union fought for, without having to do any work to get them.

|By which you mean, there's been a movement by employers towards the right to work for less.

Unions can keep people out of professions in a lot of places in the US. Right to work makes it so union membership isn't mandatory. Surely if the union is so awesome, voluntary membership would work just fine.

|What's bullshit is that non-union employees get the same benefits that a union fought for, without having to do any work to get them.

Take it up with the union leadership, not me pal. They're the ones agitating for this stuff.

Re: Making Video Games Is Not a Dream Job

#393

Post by sokoloff »

slg wrote: post #365
vharuck wrote: post #331

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> People spend countless hours working on open source software for free just because they like it. Some people create or contribute as part of their job. If the job requires new software, the company doesn't want to sell the software, and the developer thinks others could use it, then why not open source?

Because open sourcing that code is taking work away from future software developers. The second company which needs that software would otherwise have to pay employees to build it or purchase it from third party software developers. The person open sourcing the software is therefore lowering the global demand for software developers which hurts the wages of all software developers. For the record, I don't think this…

When I walk by a window and don't break it, am I taking work away from glaziers?

Re: Making Video Games Is Not a Dream Job

#394

Post by merpnderp »

nf05papsjfVbc wrote: post #166
merpnderp wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you have two people equally passionate and capable about doing a job, but one wants more money for fewer hours and the other is happy with less money for more hours, why should the more costly, less productive person get the job?

Exactly! And of course this ought to go further and only the desperate are ultimately deserving of that job. They won't even demand safe working conditions. They'll be grateful for the opportunity. It's not slavery if the employer doesn't "own" that person.

I'd prefer our improvements and working conditions come through the political process. That way it remains fair across the board without the lucky few who make it into unions, which nearly always become a good 'ol boy network, handing out favors to someone's cousins first, or beating the crap out of people who dare to not join them.

Re: Making Video Games Is Not a Dream Job

#395

Post by hnarn »

Funes- wrote: post #135
hnarn wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I see a lot of anti-union talk on HN That's because most people on HN are from the U.S. where a century of propaganda has convinced most people not only that poor people are lazy, but by extension that unions are evil, corrupt and lazy organizations infiltrated by organized crime. While this propaganda has a minority basis in reality in some cases, as all propaganda will have because propaganda can't be 100% fantas…

>If you ask someone from Spain or Germany about unions and attempt to explain why they're "evil" from the US perspective, I can guarantee you will be met with complete disbelief . How can you possibly guarantee (no less!) what someone, regardless of where they come from, will say about any subject? You cannot complain about generalizations and broad statements, as in here: >...a century of propaganda has convinced mo…

Pointing out singular words when making an argument is just petulant, clearly I was speaking in general terms and referring to the general difference between the US and Europe. That anyone would claim that it's impossible to find someone with a pro-union opinion in the US is as nonsensical as saying you couldn't find one with an anti-union opinion in Europe. We're talking about hundreds of millions of people.

The main point of my comment, which I made very clear, was that specific examples of "bad unions" is not a helpful or constructive basis upon which to have an argument about the theoretical place of labour unions in a market, no more than you would base an argument about where to go for dinner in the nutritional value of a carrot.

Re: Making Video Games Is Not a Dream Job

#396

Post by SamuelAdams »

Waterluvian wrote: post #377
pslam wrote: post #353

It is appalling that the top 3 comments (at time of writing this one) are victim-blaming. "They should get better jobs". "There's a high demand so they should go elsewhere". "They should have known before they went there". Where have you been in the last few years, and how have you not learned anything about abusive practices which entrap people? These companies are basically abusive — they abuse their staff with lon…

Enh... They're not victims. They're just people who picked a profession that doesn't have great terms. By changing professions they may get better terms. That might also change the supply in the industry and help others too. One lucky thing about game dev is that your skills do transfer. Whether to graphic design or programming or marketing or whatnot. It's not like they got a gamedev license and are locked in.

Exactly. A victim can't get out of whatever situation they are in. Each employee probably signed an "at-will" employment agreement, so they can leave at any time, for any reason.

Re: Making Video Games Is Not a Dream Job

#397

Post by slg »

sokoloff wrote: post #393
slg wrote: post #365

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because open sourcing that code is taking work away from future software developers. The second company which needs that software would otherwise have to pay employees to build it or purchase it from third party software developers. The person open sourcing the software is therefore lowering the global demand for software developers which hurts the wages of all software developers. For the record, I don't think this…

When I walk by a window and don't break it, am I taking work away from glaziers?

That is stronger language than I would use, but yes you declined an opportunity to increase the demand for glaziers.

I imagine your are trying to allude to the glazier's fallacy [1]. However that is only a fallacy from the perspective of the entire economy. An extra dollar spent on a glazier is going to benefit the glazier. The problem for the economy at large is that the dollar might have otherwise been spent on the tailor, baker, etc.

To take this back to software development, the glazier fallacy is why I am not against open source software. The overall economy is made more efficient from it. However that doesn't change the fact that the increase in efficiency comes from not having to pay more money to software developers. That isn't great if you view the situation purely from the perspective of a (selfish) software developer.

[1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parable_of_the_broken_window

Re: Making Video Games Is Not a Dream Job

#398

Post by erik998 »

noego wrote: post #274

I'm all for protecting the vulnerable and underprivileged. I'm all for universal healthcare, increased minimum wages/EITC, and increased taxes on the rich. But I'm very skeptical of the idea that white collar professionals earning well above the median, are somehow in need of "protecting". They have every opportunity to quit the video game industry and take up very lucrative and easygoing jobs in other industries. Th…

Those were my initial feelings as well. I guess the issue comes down to focusing on software development as a skill and having that skill rewarded in manner you can count on.

Our industry is really similar to actors. They have SAG and their guild negotiates with the MPAA. So every studio needs to belong to MPAA. Every year they negotiate the daily/weekly minimum rates for actors with SAG. They are pretty flexible with different rates for indy films vs big budget films.

It's not so hard to imagine a software developers guild where they negotiate for a daily/weekly minimum for developers, dba's, qa's, devops, and such...

https://www.sagaftra.org/production-center/contract/810/rate...

If you are celebrity equivalent of a developer, then you can get paid more. There are no real restrictions. You don't see famous actors getting paid below the daily minimum. When they work for a big budget film they typically get x multiple times the daily rate. Also, if they want to work on an indy film they can agree to those minimum daily rates as well.

I think its flexible enough so if you want to work for a nonprofit you can just accept the daily/weekly minimum vs asking full price if you work for FAANG.

I don't think it's a crazy amount of protections but it sets aside a basic set of standards you can expect from job to job.

If your are over 120k they suggest actors create a loan out corporation at that point...

https://firemark.com/2015/01/12/should-you-have-a-loan-out-c...

Can you imagine all the FAANG companies having to setup a Software Industry Association to negotiate with a Software Developers Guild every year? It seems plausible. It's probably in their best interest as well. These companies could just dump any social issues on to the union and just focus on making profits. The ability to lock out competitors might force other big software dev employers to join the association as well.

Re: Making Video Games Is Not a Dream Job

#399

Post by enraged_camel »

gridlockd wrote: post #367
pslam wrote: post #353

It is appalling that the top 3 comments (at time of writing this one) are victim-blaming. "They should get better jobs". "There's a high demand so they should go elsewhere". "They should have known before they went there". Where have you been in the last few years, and how have you not learned anything about abusive practices which entrap people? These companies are basically abusive — they abuse their staff with lon…

Apparently, everyone is a victim these days simply by making life decisions they end up regretting. Nobody is responsible for anything concerning themselves anymore. The idea that these people are entrapped is a bunch of nonsense. We're not talking about people that have zero alternatives besides scraping at the bottom of a barrel. We're talking about people that are already well-paid and would be even higher paid if…

>>Apparently, everyone is a victim these days simply by making life decisions they end up regretting. Nobody is responsible for anything concerning themselves anymore.

No one makes decisions in a vacuum. People's behaviors are informed by their upbringing and circumstances, most of which they have no control over. Studies show that people are deeply affected by those around them, and their role models (whether those be friends or family members) have a deep impact on the paths they take in life. For example, arranging regular interactions between kids in school and young, successful white collar professionals drastically increases the likelihood that those kids end up picking similar careers. In contrast, if they are surrounded by high crime and poverty, they tend to not do so well.

This is why one should not rush to judgment when discussing these issues: things are never as simple as "well, they made the wrong decisions in life." Even if the decisions were indeed wrong in retrospect, at the time they might have looked like (or actually have been) the right ones, or simply the best ones available.

Re: Making Video Games Is Not a Dream Job

#400

Post by IdiocyInAction »

thr0awaz wrote: post #285
ben509 wrote: post #233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So the “practical” solution is to change human nature? We could at least stop giving young people terrible advice like, "you can do anything, live your dream!" "Get a practical job to pay the bills, and do your dream as a side gig," is a pretty reasonable compromise. Most people are have a low tolerance for risk and it's a problem when they get into a field that requires being a risk taker. That tolerance for risk…

If we're honest with kids, it's going to be hard to get them to do anything. "Well.. Tina's going to get a great job whatever she does, and however little effor she puts into it, but it's because her mom's a doctor and they have a lot of money. It doesn't matter if she owns an iPhone X and doesn't do homework. You need to, and it doesn't matter if you really love cooking because chefs make like $10 an hour and you ne…

If we'd be truly honest with kids, we'd tell them that most of them can't become investment bankers either...
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