Buy Yourself a Latte • Hacker News Board

Re: Buy Yourself a Latte

#121

Post by devoply » Fri, Apr 05, 2019, 6:06 PM UTC

lixtra wrote: post #117

devoply wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And so what? That's 1800 tax on you per year. Say it was charged as something like a tax. Nothing that most people in the Western world would be effected significantly by.

> And so what? What you propose is not much different from the social security many countries levy. Typically it’s not an economic efficient way of saving. The absurdity of the forced savings proposal becomes apparent if you cannot afford a life saving operation at age 59 because you cannot access your savings. Please don’t try to add exceptions now. Forced savings is just a bad idea.

Okay. Your argument only becomes valid after the fact that all that money that would have been spent on things like coffee is retained. In most cases people would simply not have that money. Not to mention that if you have some guaranteed amount of money coming to you at some point it should be possible to get a loan using that as collateral. And I would like to see examples of forced savings where any of the supposed issues actually manifest compared to what we have now where we literally have millions of people with no savings and retirement ages that keep increasing.

Almost 30 percent of households have less than $1,000 saved, MagnifyMoney finds, though the amount varies drastically by age. As of June 2018, millennials have less saved than baby boomers, because older Americans have had over three decades longer to save and larger salaries to work with.

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/08/28/how-much-money-americans-hav...

Here's how Americans' median savings breaks down by age:

    Millennials (born 1981-1998): $2,430
    Gen X (born 1965-1980): $15,780
    Baby Boomers and older (born before 1964): $24,280

In fact I could see something like this really putting a dent on all the privilege in America where African Americans and other minorities basically have no savings... and no potential for ever accumulating any real wealth. When grandma or grandpa can send their grandson to college or put a down payment on their house or give them a business loan, that's an actual difference in people's lives.

Re: Buy Yourself a Latte

#122

Post by kileywm » Fri, Apr 05, 2019, 6:06 PM UTC

A lot of this discussion centers around retirement and how many will end up with little-to-no savings to live on when they exit the workforce.

General question: what recourse does someone have that retires with no savings now, in the US?

Some ideas...

1. Gov: Social Security (Income)

2. Gov: Medicare (Healthcare)

3. Gov: Various assistance programs (Food, utilities, etc)

4. Social: Add roommate(s) to split cost of living expenses

5. Lifestyle: Downsize

Follow-up question: if the majority of people do not save sufficiently for retirement, then what might the recourse options be 20, 30, 40 years from now?

Re: Buy Yourself a Latte

#123

Post by peterwwillis » Fri, Apr 05, 2019, 6:07 PM UTC

ebg13 wrote: post #32

So far people in the thread seem to be focusing on whether the use of inflation is appropriate and whether coffee is specific or merely representative or whether small costs add up. But they've all missed what I think is the true takeaway: > Please excuse my lack of enthusiasm for discussing 4-dollar lattes while we ignore 30-plus years of zero real wage gains.

That's like saying, "Pardon my lack of enthusiasm about self-driving cars while we ignore an industry that continues to pollute the environment." Pardon me while I have one conversation at a time...

Re: Buy Yourself a Latte

#124

Post by falcolas » Fri, Apr 05, 2019, 6:12 PM UTC

parthdesai wrote: post #93

falcolas wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Salaried vs hourly doesn't matter that much when looking at opportunity costs. Most salaried folks stick to a fixed set of working hours. > It is a pure luxury expense. Practically speaking, purchasing coffee at all is a luxury line item. There's no actual need for it for anything other than the caffeine hit and flavor. At least with a Latte, there's the protein, calcium and calories from the milk.

>Most salaried folks stick to a fixed set of working hours. We also browse internet, spend ungodly amount of time on fb/insta/whatsapp/HN/reddit while at work. Taking out 5 mins to make a coffee isn't that significant.

> Taking out 5 mins to make a coffee isn't that significant.

No, it's not. Just as spending $5 on a latte every day isn't that significant either (for the assumed "average tech worker").

Re: Buy Yourself a Latte

#125

Post by pytyper2 » Fri, Apr 05, 2019, 6:12 PM UTC

I feel articles like this should recommend an annual income threshold, if you are buying these lattes with a credit card while your checking account is over-drafted then it is going to indirectly affect your retirement. But I do acknowledge that most people reading this are probably not in an over-drafted position.

Re: Buy Yourself a Latte

#126

Post by falcolas » Fri, Apr 05, 2019, 6:14 PM UTC

antisthenes wrote: post #85

falcolas wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Salaried vs hourly doesn't matter that much when looking at opportunity costs. Most salaried folks stick to a fixed set of working hours. > It is a pure luxury expense. Practically speaking, purchasing coffee at all is a luxury line item. There's no actual need for it for anything other than the caffeine hit and flavor. At least with a Latte, there's the protein, calcium and calories from the milk.

> Practically speaking, purchasing coffee at all is a luxury line item. There's no actual need for it for anything other than the caffeine hit and flavor. True, but that's a very deep rabbit hole. We could sit here all day debating what's luxury and what's not. My counterargument would be that if with automation the way it is, if a regular person can't afford a self-made cup of coffee (or an equivalently cheap luxury…

The argument is not that luxuries shouldn't be purchased (they should). In the parent's comment, they put down a latte as a luxury item while upholding their brewed coffee as a better purchase. This was simply an effort to rebut that statement.

Re: Buy Yourself a Latte

#127

Post by ErikAugust » Fri, Apr 05, 2019, 6:17 PM UTC

Save up some 12-15 lattes and buy yourself a share of SBUX. Then go to Starbucks and buy yourself a latte.

Re: Buy Yourself a Latte

#128

Post by astine » Fri, Apr 05, 2019, 6:18 PM UTC

falcolas wrote: post #43

AdmiralAsshat wrote: post #27

Counterpoint: The debate is framed as "$5 a day is a waste--put it into your piggy bank every day and drink office sludge instead". I instead say that yes, the office coffee still tastes like fertilizer, but I still think $5 a day for a latte is waste because I can make some excellent coffee at my desk for about a dollar a day using an inexpensive French Press, a hand-grinder (or grinding the beans that morning at ho…

You're exchanging time for money. It's a highly common tradeoff. Prep, brewing, and cleanup amounts can work up to around $3-4 of opportunity cost for a tech professional. Not to mention, french press coffee is not quite equivalent to a latte. Also, I recommend 5 minutes steeping, personally. ;)

I don't know about you, but it usually takes me less time overall to make coffee at home than to get it at a coffee shop or gas station once I factor in travel time.

Re: Buy Yourself a Latte

#129

Post by hopler » Fri, Apr 05, 2019, 6:19 PM UTC

DoreenMichele wrote: post #112

ineedasername wrote: post #46

If part of your audience consists of people living without much a safety net, that $5 a day adds up. Also, the author's point that saving that much isn't going to be $1 million, but "only" as much as $500,000 then that point rather falls flat. Sure, inflation may decrease the utility of that amount of money, but it will also increase the cost of that latte, so you'll be saving more than just the $5 over time. Finally…

that $5 a day adds up The article isn't advocating that you buy a coffee every single day. It's saying a. focus on larger issues and b. it's okay to do a little self care and a little self indulgence. I sometimes bought myself a fucking coffee of some sort at Starbuck's back when I was homeless. I needed the caffeine to help treat health issues. It let me plug in for an hour and get some electricity for my tablet, pl…

You got a lot for your $5. At the other end of the spectrum are chronically bankrupt people maxed out on credit card debt who buy a takeout $6 giant candy coffee whenever they go anywhere and don't even bother to finish drinking it before they have to throw it away because they are walking into a restaurant. This story is based on true events.

Re: Buy Yourself a Latte

#130

Post by degrews » Fri, Apr 05, 2019, 6:19 PM UTC

I think most of this argument is based on a false dichotomy "Saving on coffee is bad advice because there are other things wrong with our finances that have a much bigger impact". The author is also not making a clear distinction between "things that are wrong with our financial/economic system" and "things one has direct and immediate control over", like the money they spend on coffee every day.

Also, no one is claiming that coffee specifically is the key to financial health. But it's the most popular example of frivolous habit-spending that doesn't actually make people happier, a category which makes a up an increasingly large part of Americans' spending.