Earlier quoted context omitted.
Yes, I'm talking about superrationality and decision theories that accommodate it, like evidential decision theory (you should make decisions that serve as evidence for the outcome you desire; e.g. you should cooperate, because doing so is evidence that a corresponding EDT-using rational partner will also cooperate) and Eliezer's pet timeless decision theory (roughly, your decisions should be treated as if you were m…
Thanks for the pointers, I found some stuff on their wiki with these keywords and it looks like some interesting reading. However, from a quick look through this interpretation makes it an even worse analogy, even if you overlook not flagging it up as an unconventional take on PD for outsiders.
Defecting by Accident - A Flaw Common to Analytical People
31–40 of 47 posts
Re: Defecting by Accident - A Flaw Common to Analytical People
#32I am all for being in control of what exactly you are saying and being alert to unintended slights but this example from TFA "But we don't have the budget or skills to do that, how would we overcome that?" ... makes the presenter look very bad. ... be diplomatic and tactful ... You could phrase it as, "This seems like an amazing idea and a great presentation. I wonder how we could secure the budgeting and get the tea…
"I'm not criticizing you personally but, yada yada yada"
†this being and polite malarky is a cinch, wish I'd known sooner
Re: Defecting by Accident - A Flaw Common to Analytical People
#33I am all for being in control of what exactly you are saying and being alert to unintended slights but this example from TFA "But we don't have the budget or skills to do that, how would we overcome that?" ... makes the presenter look very bad. ... be diplomatic and tactful ... You could phrase it as, "This seems like an amazing idea and a great presentation. I wonder how we could secure the budgeting and get the tea…
You know plinkplonk, you make some fine points there†. What would you feel about the following - how about stating upfront your lack of intention to insult? "I'm not criticizing you personally but, yada yada yada" †this being and polite malarky is a cinch, wish I'd known sooner
"I don't mean to be rude, but you're an idiot"
is no less rude as a result of claiming not to be rude (though they /may/ not notice this and it might work).Re: Defecting by Accident - A Flaw Common to Analytical People
#34I've always suspect that the almost ritualistic indulgence in self deprecating humor common in many places I've worked is pretty much the antidote to the "over direct" form of communication that technical types are so prone to. This is probably related to the suspicion that people aren't completely comfortable working together unless you have all got very drunk at some point.... but perhaps that's because I am Scotti…
This sounds like a good idea. The examples in TFA are bit too far to the managerspeak side for me. Can you give some examples, though? I can't really see how you could turn, say, the "budget" issue from TFA into a self-deprecating thing. But that is because I suck dicks. (Am I doing it right?)
We Scots call the technique of appearing ignorant the "daft laddie" approach - something I like to employ a lot (probably because I'm half daft myself). Ask the questions, imply that you are the stupid one for not understanding stuff.... Of course, this is a lot easier if you are in a relatively senior position and suspected of not actually being completely daft - but it's a lot better than being an insufferable know it all.
Re: Defecting by Accident - A Flaw Common to Analytical People
#35Earlier quoted context omitted.
This sounds like a good idea. The examples in TFA are bit too far to the managerspeak side for me. Can you give some examples, though? I can't really see how you could turn, say, the "budget" issue from TFA into a self-deprecating thing. But that is because I suck dicks. (Am I doing it right?)
To be honest asking "But we don't have the budget or skills to do that, how would we overcome that?" doesn't sound that bad to me - at least it is suggesting that there could be a solution. We Scots call the technique of appearing ignorant the "daft laddie" approach - something I like to employ a lot (probably because I'm half daft myself). Ask the questions, imply that you are the stupid one for not understanding st…
"What are the budget and staffing constraints for this project?" I KNOW the project is doomed, but I don't need to be the one to point that out - let the presenter handle it, if they haven't thought about it they can give a vague answer now and figure it out later, or maybe they have thought about it and have a solution I don't suspect. Either way, the focus shifts from "you haven't thought about X" to "what about X?"
Re: Defecting by Accident - A Flaw Common to Analytical People
#36I am all for being in control of what exactly you are saying and being alert to unintended slights but this example from TFA "But we don't have the budget or skills to do that, how would we overcome that?" ... makes the presenter look very bad. ... be diplomatic and tactful ... You could phrase it as, "This seems like an amazing idea and a great presentation. I wonder how we could secure the budgeting and get the tea…
Re: Defecting by Accident - A Flaw Common to Analytical People
#37I am all for being in control of what exactly you are saying and being alert to unintended slights but this example from TFA "But we don't have the budget or skills to do that, how would we overcome that?" ... makes the presenter look very bad. ... be diplomatic and tactful ... You could phrase it as, "This seems like an amazing idea and a great presentation. I wonder how we could secure the budgeting and get the tea…
This article reads to me like it's about interacting with personality types not of the Myers-Briggs "NT" variety. It seems that most IT professionals are of some NT variation, lots of INTJ programmers so this post would probably ring true for a lot of people.
"I don't think the first question necessarily insults the speaker, but that aside, does the second version even mean the same thing as the first?"
Yes, it's about the intended goal and not the content of the questions. So they're designed to get to the destination differently. The goal is to overcome the issue of budgetary restraint.
You and I might default to doing it the first way, the issue seems obvious, let's acknowledge it, solve it and move on. That's the NT way. Some people, challengers, Myers-Briggs ENTJs and most NTs will fight back and solve the issue and respect is often gained on both sides. If the person it's directed to isn't an NT, that approach will seem abrasive to them. "F" types will not happily play this game.
I don't agree with the author that all communications must be dressed this way, there are personality types that revel in it and fully expect to be challenged in this way. ENTJs in particular will not respect you unless you can do this (And many CEOs are ENTJs). This argument is kind of like saying Java is the best language in the world, everything should be built in Java. Java has its place but it's far from the best tool for every job. I see this as the same thing.
Re: Defecting by Accident - A Flaw Common to Analytical People
#38Bad explanations of the prisoners dilemma are a constant fascination to me. They pop-up in so many otherwise excellent bits of writing, imho, because the standard mental image of two prisoners being interrogated is such a mismatch for the actual dilemma. For example, in this case he's talking about "defecting by accident", yet two paragraphs before he's just outlined the fact that "the best solution individually is t…
I love this comment, because it is such a brilliant demonstration of the blog author's points -- let's focus on what I can do to show that I am smarter than you!
Re: Defecting by Accident - A Flaw Common to Analytical People
#39Check out a few of his examples:
#1 is kind of clever pointing out a spelling error. But you have to realize, in normal society that's going to upset and make hostile the person you're addressing. Whether you mean to or not, it comes across as, "I'm demonstrating that I'm more clever than you."
There's a few ways it could be done differently. For instance, an email that says, "Hey Sebastian, I wanted to give you a heads up. I saw your recent post, but you spelled "wisen" as "wizen" - easy spelling error to make, since they're uncommonly used words, but I thought you should know. "Wizen" means for things to dry up and lose water. Cheers and best wishes."
If somebody posted a comment like that aimed at me, I'd think, "Wow, why is this guy working so hard to maintain distance? Is he afraid I'll think we're best friends or something? Or do I really seem so fragile he needs to soften the blow?"
In a meeting at work, I appreciate more tact, but I still don't like being treated like I'm fragile. Treating someone with inappropriate sensitivity is actually a great passive-aggressive way to make them feel like shit. You should only do that on purpose, never accidentally ;-)
Let's look at point #2. "FWIW, I think posts like this are more valuable the more they include real-world examples; it's kind of odd to read a post which says I had theory A of the world but now I hold theory B, without reading about the actual observations."
This is something which makes people trying to help or create shake their head. See, it's potentially a good point. But after someone takes some time to create something and give it away for free, then hearing, "Your work would be more valuable if you did (xyz) instead. Your way is kind of odd."
Didn't he just do the same thing? He got free feedback on something he wrote, and here he is criticizing it without first thanking the guy profusely. Irony upon irony, this is shortly followed by a list of guidelines for social self-awareness.
Context is everything! I appreciate tact at the right times and in the right doses, but misspelling a word is exactly the kind of small error that can be treated lightly, and excessive formality destroys any feeling of frankness or openness. Criticism is always hard to take; excessive solicitude for a person's feelings just adds an implicit criticism of, well, their ability to take criticism. To some extent, this varies by situation. Anything that aggravates the inherent anxiety of the situation -- a superior criticizing a subordinate, or criticism of a sensitive personal characteristic, for example -- indicates more sensitivity.
But there are many situations where directness and informality is better. Actually, I'd rather somebody posted, "Hey, it's 'wised up,' not 'wizened up,' you pompous dickhead," than for them to act like they're afraid my ego will be crushed by having a spelling mistake pointed out. At least I can assume they're kidding about calling me a dickhead.
Re: Defecting by Accident - A Flaw Common to Analytical People
#40Earlier quoted context omitted.
Are you talking about Superrationality ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superrationality )? Still strikes me as changing the rules and then pretending you've said something new about the original unchanged form. Kind of like saying you'd choose white in the "You must choose black game". I'm a bit disappointed if this kind of sloppy logic/mysticism is popular on LessWrong.
Googling for mentions of this on LessWrong it seems Elizier agrees that the standard formulation is confusing but remains strangely coy about what a rational actor should/would do in response: http://lesswrong.com/lw/tn/the_true_prisoners_dilemma/ Actually, in a follow-up he's clearer in a comment: "As someone who rejects defection as the inevitable rational solution to both the one-shot PD and the iterated PD, I'm i…
I'm guessing that Eliezer's being relatively quiet about this because he's still working on a grand unified theory of how to approach such problems: