Making Video Games Is Not a Dream Job • Hacker News Board

Re: Making Video Games Is Not a Dream Job

#281

Post by mrbill29 » Fri, Apr 05, 2019, 4:18 PM UTC

I got to say, reading the comments as someone who currently works in games, I don't understand why people think there's such a divide. Game development at this point is really not that different from other development. Do some studios suck at management? Yes, do some do management well? Yes. Just like other tech games has it's share of good and bad. Personally I don't work overtime and haven't since my first game job. Some people do, sometimes it's because they're covering for others work, sometimes it's because they want to put something special in they can call their own.

Is games as an industry harder? Probably, games push current tech in every way possible. Does it mean you'll have to work harder to accomplish your goals? Also probably. But with games at least you're trying to do something no one else is most of the time. And when it hits it's something you can be proud of. Not everyone cares about that, but people in games often do.

Re: Making Video Games Is Not a Dream Job

#282

Post by jquery » Fri, Apr 05, 2019, 4:18 PM UTC

maxehmookau wrote: post #67

lovetocode wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I probably jumped the gun on the unionization part. I don’t know a lot about it but my impression of unions is not so bright. Maybe my ignorance is showing with that regard

My knowledge of unions is based entirely on the UK. They allow groups of employees who are subject to poor conditions to group together and participate in collective bargaining. Most programmers in the UK are not a member of a union as pay is fairly high and conditions relatively good, but the majority of public-sector and a lot of private-sector workers are. Unionising would be an excellent first step for employees…

I’m all in favor of private sector unions, because a union that is too greedy will kill its host. For the same reason I am against public sector unions, their host is the government and “killing” that results in severe consequences for all of us. Look at the pension crisis in several states.

Re: Making Video Games Is Not a Dream Job

#283

Post by ghaff » Fri, Apr 05, 2019, 4:18 PM UTC

lacey wrote: post #272

ghaff wrote: post #254

Earlier quoted context omitted.

See also photography, writing, art, etc. Some professionals are in fact resentful to greater or lesser degrees of amateurs willing to work for free (either just for fun or because it's useful to them professionally for reputational or other reasons). I asked a journalist I knew whether he minded the fact that people like myself publish articles/blogs for free in publications that also have paid staff/freelancers. His…

I’m a photographer by hobby and you very often see people wanting to hire someone good but who isn’t expecting to make a living at it with offers like “I’ll let you shoot my event to help build your portfolio, and all you have to do is give me a copy of all the photos.” Or alternatively offering something like $100 for four hours to do lifestyle street shoots. I don’t know how often they are successful at getting pho…

"For the exposure/to build your portfolio." Uggh.

To be clear, I sometimes shoot events for free as a favor. And I sometimes shoot concerts or sporting events just because I feel like it. And if you find my photos on Flickr I'll probably give you permission to use them for free. (Though if you want to pay me, that's fine too and I do sometimes get annoyed with the presumption that I'm not going to ask for a fee.) But I'm probably not going to take you up on a minimum wage offer unless it were something I was going to do anyway.

Re: Making Video Games Is Not a Dream Job

#284

Post by radiator » Fri, Apr 05, 2019, 4:21 PM UTC

Funes- wrote: post #135

hnarn wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I see a lot of anti-union talk on HN That's because most people on HN are from the U.S. where a century of propaganda has convinced most people not only that poor people are lazy, but by extension that unions are evil, corrupt and lazy organizations infiltrated by organized crime. While this propaganda has a minority basis in reality in some cases, as all propaganda will have because propaganda can't be 100% fantas…

>If you ask someone from Spain or Germany about unions and attempt to explain why they're "evil" from the US perspective, I can guarantee you will be met with complete disbelief . How can you possibly guarantee (no less!) what someone, regardless of where they come from, will say about any subject? You cannot complain about generalizations and broad statements, as in here: >...a century of propaganda has convinced mo…

+1, this is a political question and, as with every political question, there are of course plenty of different opinions in Europe about it.

Re: Making Video Games Is Not a Dream Job

#285

Post by thr0awaz » Fri, Apr 05, 2019, 4:22 PM UTC

ben509 wrote: post #233

derefr wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the only practical solution is for people to stop taking on terrible jobs because of some sense of 'passion' So the “practical” solution is to change human nature? That doesn’t sound right. It’d be like saying that the practical solution to human trafficking is for people to stop visiting prostitutes; or that the solution to gangs’ drug income is for people to stop buying drugs. In all these cases, you can quash su…

> So the “practical” solution is to change human nature? We could at least stop giving young people terrible advice like, "you can do anything, live your dream!" "Get a practical job to pay the bills, and do your dream as a side gig," is a pretty reasonable compromise. Most people are have a low tolerance for risk and it's a problem when they get into a field that requires being a risk taker. That tolerance for risk…

If we're honest with kids, it's going to be hard to get them to do anything.

"Well.. Tina's going to get a great job whatever she does, and however little effor she puts into it, but it's because her mom's a doctor and they have a lot of money. It doesn't matter if she owns an iPhone X and doesn't do homework. You need to, and it doesn't matter if you really love cooking because chefs make like $10 an hour and you need to pay rent so you need to go into investment banking even though you hate math and Excel."

Then we'll wonder why teenage suicides are sky high... oh gee i wonder why...

Re: Making Video Games Is Not a Dream Job

#286

Post by luiscleto » Fri, Apr 05, 2019, 4:26 PM UTC

doctorpangloss wrote: post #249

CM30 wrote: post #97

> For many kids who grew up with controllers in their hands, being a game developer is a dream job, so when it comes to talent, supply is higher than demand This is basically the reason for low wages in quite a few 'passion' driven industries. If a job is something enough people want to do, then talent is cheap and plentiful and companies can provide low wages and poor conditions that for every person who quits, ten…

I don’t know, I think Jason knows a lot more about this stuff than we do. The supply/demand thing, I wish he omitted because it lets people look at things way too reductionist. It’s actually very difficult to look at a salary and have that tell you something about supply and demand for a job. It’s obviously not that simple. In particular, it would be impossible to look at that figure and try to make heads or tails of…

> I don’t think it’s about supply and demand for game developer pay either

If there was a shortage of game developers, employers would be forced to give much better benefits and compensation to retain and hire staff (and probably there would be a lot less games and studios). There may be more to the analysis, but I don't agree that you can ignore supply and demand and turn this into just oppressor greedy guy vs oppressed exploited worker instead.

Re: Making Video Games Is Not a Dream Job

#287

Post by munificent » Fri, Apr 05, 2019, 4:26 PM UTC

luiscleto wrote: post #148

CM30 wrote: post #97

> For many kids who grew up with controllers in their hands, being a game developer is a dream job, so when it comes to talent, supply is higher than demand This is basically the reason for low wages in quite a few 'passion' driven industries. If a job is something enough people want to do, then talent is cheap and plentiful and companies can provide low wages and poor conditions that for every person who quits, ten…

> Unionisation may help, but the only practical solution is for people to stop taking on terrible jobs because of some sense of 'passion', and to go where their skills are appreciated/where they're treated better/fairly compensated This. Unionisation is basically an attempt to reject the reality that there isn't enough demand for all that labor to be valuable at/above market-average. Ultimately I don't think there is…

> there isn't enough demand for all that labor to be valuable at/above market-average.

This argument would be stronger if the game industry didn't also feature a large number of insanely well paid executives.

Unionization in the game industry is not about magically thinking that higher salaries will appear out of thin air. It's about low-ranking employees coordinating with each other to correct some of the power imbalance versus executives so that rank and file can get a larger share of the pie.

Re: Making Video Games Is Not a Dream Job

#288

Post by excalibur » Fri, Apr 05, 2019, 4:28 PM UTC

adrianhel wrote: post #240

slg wrote: post #219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>In this case, the demand is “the ability to express myself to a huge audience.” People are willing to pay to do that. Because of that, they see any job where they get to do it as a net positive, even if the job is horrible. This is true for any job that is just an extension of a hobby. People put on local community theater productions in their spare time because they find it fun and fulfilling. You don't have to pay…

And the type of software people make for free is not the same software people get paid to create. I bet few people would be eager to develop banking software on their free time for instance.

> I bet few people would be eager to develop banking software on their free time for instance.

If a bank found someone who was eager to develop its software for free, it would have a pretty good reason to question their motives.

Re: Making Video Games Is Not a Dream Job

#289

Post by commandertso » Fri, Apr 05, 2019, 4:28 PM UTC

The comments here have a fair number of people baffled at why folks would stay at jobs like this for any period of time. Here’s my thought based on working in games for around a decade; I left after that, in part for quality of life reasons.

For folks that want to work in games, there can be a strong feeling that it is a quixotic quest; there aren’t a lot of jobs relative to the applicants, you’re chasing a dream, and the big places of employment often made the games that made you passionate about everything in the first place.

Once you get that first job, you’re taught that you are not only one of the best, but that you’re lucky to be there. It’s easy to quickly bond with your comrades around the shared, stressful experiences. And to internalize that this is all ok because what quest doesn’t involve some pain?

My first game job was in 2002, and my long, slow falling out of love with the industry started after shipping the first game I’d worked on. Once it had gone gold, we all took a couple weeks at 40 hours a week. After that, I was told by my boss that we all had to go back to 60 hour weeks. I asked why. The answer was, “that’s how we work.”

That was when I started looking for a new job.

Re: Making Video Games Is Not a Dream Job

#290

Post by whyaduck » Fri, Apr 05, 2019, 4:29 PM UTC

marcelr wrote: post #269

sokoloff wrote: post #261

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the only practical solution is for people to stop taking on terrible jobs because of some sense of 'passion', and to go where their skills are appreciated/where they're treated better/fairly compensated. I worked a couple years in game industry (shipping an auto racing game for Playstation and contributing to a few other titles; I did sleep under my desk a few nights during crunch time so we'd have a demo ready for…

You seem like the exception rather than the rule.. I don't think anyone is suggesting people not follow their passions, its more about people not knowing what they're getting themselves into most of the time.

If they were unionized it would be much easier to understand what they're getting themselves into.

Union contracts are typically public, unambiguous and well enforced; certainly better than relying on "company policy" to judge what work conditions will be like.