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Making Video Games Is Not a Dream Job

nytimes.com

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Re: Making Video Games Is Not a Dream Job

#221

Post by jes5199 »

CM30 wrote: post #97

> For many kids who grew up with controllers in their hands, being a game developer is a dream job, so when it comes to talent, supply is higher than demand This is basically the reason for low wages in quite a few 'passion' driven industries. If a job is something enough people want to do, then talent is cheap and plentiful and companies can provide low wages and poor conditions that for every person who quits, ten…

This effect hits non-profit organizations really hard - people feel like they need to suffer to earn the right to make the world a better place, but the overall effect is that non-profit workers lead precarious lives, and their effectiveness suffers due to this instability. People with the ability to fix organizational dysfunction can rarely continue to make those wages, and so they move into for-profit industry.

This is not a good way to run a society.

Re: Making Video Games Is Not a Dream Job

#222

Post by chobeat »

lovetocode wrote: post #52
maxehmookau wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>They should grow a spine and say no to ridiculous work conditions. YES! You're absolutely right! > They don’t need to unionize. Err... Why on earth not? That would literally be the definition of growing a spine and saying no to ridiculous work conditions but also having it be effective.

I probably jumped the gun on the unionization part. I don’t know a lot about it but my impression of unions is not so bright. Maybe my ignorance is showing with that regard

If you like weekends and holidays, you like unions.

Re: Making Video Games Is Not a Dream Job

#224

Post by mixmastamyk »

maxxxxx wrote: post #103
Pfhreak wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my experience it was the ic level. Leadership would say, what's a reasonable timeline for feature x. The engineers would spend two hours arguing that estimates are bullshit, then give a trivially small (and obviously wrong) estimate. Leadership would say, are you sure? Engineers would basically flip them the bird and say yes. Then inevitably be late. I get it, estimating is inexact. But there's a clear difference…

That’s not my experience. When asked for an estimate you usually already know the politically correct number. I have never got away with giving the number I think will be realistic.

If you give an incorrect estimate, you'll be the one to blame at the end of the project. Remember estimates aren't promises, so better to deal with hurt feelings at the start of the project.

Re: Making Video Games Is Not a Dream Job

#225

Post by EliRivers »

gowld wrote: post #109
EliRivers wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

they need to realize that they have a unique and valuable skill set The competition to be a low-paid drone in game development is huge; significantly more than in non game dev. The games industry is powered by huge numbers of low-experience software engineers. They get paid in glamour and the thrill of being able to tell their friends they work in games. They could leave and go somewhere else for more money, but they…

People say that, but what's the glamour? Do you have friends in AAA gamedev? Do you think that's cool? Do their parents? Their little brothers? You know who is cool? the 2-3 people who designed and built Pac-Mac, or Legend of Zelda, or Braid, or Papers Please. Not the people making guns for Call of War 7 that's a clone of a dozen other AAA games.

You mean, do I know who you happen to think is cool, which pretty much by definition has to be a cultural and personal opinion? Good for you. Lots of people think working on big flashy modern AAA games is cool and glamourous. I don't. You don't. Presumably that's why we won't work for glamour in the games industry. Lots of people are prepared to work for glamour in the games industry; they think it's cool.

Re: Making Video Games Is Not a Dream Job

#226

Post by icebraining »

ghaff wrote: post #168
yomly wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can confirm this having accidentally ended up working in the Media industry (in a non-passion capacity). More pertinently, I know someone trying to get an entry level role in a similar passion field and is struggling. Adding to the problem is: - Passion fields are quite insular and like to only hire from within the industry - Nepotism is everywhere. In something like art, hiring so and so's son/daughter may cost you…

There can also just be a lot of randomness involved. How many actors hit at least B-list status because of some TV show that ends up a big hit and then they never really get a significant role again? [ADDED: Or, for that matter, the many other actors of similar talent who didn't click with the casting director for that role for whatever reason and never got that break at all.]

I think the randomness comes from the mismatched supply / demand. After the people with a leg up (very talented and pliable, or with good personal connections) get selected, you're left with a reserve army of labour, so random allocation is a sensible strategy.

I know many actors of this class (irregular appearances on TV shows), and the casting directors simply don't care; they and the crew just try to remember a few names on the spot that fit the needed profile, make a few calls, maybe do a couple of auditions (often not even that), and they're chosen.

Re: Making Video Games Is Not a Dream Job

#227

Post by madrox »

I’ve never worked on games professionally, but I work in games media and have been able to watch this industry change up close. Video game development is really a different beast than the rest of development. They branched in the 80s the way apes and chimps did genetically. They don’t follow the same tech trends that the rest of the industry follows. I doubt a majority of game devs even know about HN. They socialize with different people. All it takes to appreciate this is to remember how caught off guard the whole industry was by mobile gaming being a thing.

I’m not convinced supply/demand is really the reason why the games industry is the way it is. I compare it to the non-games tech industry and see the conversations, communities, and struggles they’ve had and the games industry is only starting to, and wonder if there is a connection.

Re: Making Video Games Is Not a Dream Job

#228

Post by murph-almighty »

derefr wrote: post #171
CM30 wrote: post #97

> For many kids who grew up with controllers in their hands, being a game developer is a dream job, so when it comes to talent, supply is higher than demand This is basically the reason for low wages in quite a few 'passion' driven industries. If a job is something enough people want to do, then talent is cheap and plentiful and companies can provide low wages and poor conditions that for every person who quits, ten…

> the only practical solution is for people to stop taking on terrible jobs because of some sense of 'passion' So the “practical” solution is to change human nature? That doesn’t sound right. It’d be like saying that the practical solution to human trafficking is for people to stop visiting prostitutes; or that the solution to gangs’ drug income is for people to stop buying drugs. In all these cases, you can quash su…

>IT'd be like saying that the practical solution to human trafficking is for people to stop visiting prostitutes

I don't want to nitpick but a lot of the strategy surrounding ending human trafficking involves cutting off demand, which means trying to stop johns from buying prostitutes. This sort of `cut off the demand` strategy isn't entirely unheard of.

Re: Making Video Games Is Not a Dream Job

#229

Post by bigtex »

In high school, (mid 90's) I desired to be a video game developer, because I thought hey I like to play video games so maybe that should be my career! That all changed when I read the Next Generation (greatest gaming mag of all time) issue on working in the gaming industry. After reading about conjugal visits on the office floor because husbands would be stuck at the office for weeks trying to the game finished, that was enough for me. As someone who wanted to get married and have a family this turned me off of going into the gaming industry and led we towards more a much more family friendly career.

As for unionization, I don't think it will help. I have a good career, great salary, working from home 4 days a week and only commute 1 day but can come in after rush hour. I don't see companies being able to provide benefits like that if unions are involved.

Re: Making Video Games Is Not a Dream Job

#230

Post by SonnyWortzik »

lovetocode wrote: post #6

Game developers let themselves be exploited with low pay and unpaid overtime. They should grow a spine and say no to ridiculous work conditions. I am tired of hearing about it. They don’t need to unionize, they need to realize that they have a unique and valuable skill set. If we are talking specifically about programmers, we have the fortunate leverage to tell our employers to go piss up a rope with the weekly job o…

In this highly competitive industry, you cannot expect someone to just stand up and demand to not be exploited when they can be simply fired and replaced within minutes. So no, it is not as simple as just growing a spine.
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