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Making Video Games Is Not a Dream Job

nytimes.com

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Re: Making Video Games Is Not a Dream Job

#211

Post by Slippery_John »

papermill wrote: post #182
wmil wrote: post #28

Jason Schreier has been pushing for game developers to unionize for a while now. In the case of programmers, it really doesn't make much sense. There's a lot of BS that can come with unions. They have transferable skills. It's just easier to change jobs. For more specialized workers a union probably does make sense, eg: 3d artists, game testers. But I think union organizers are really only interested in the programme…

Jason Schreier has never worked as developer or in the gaming industry. It's insane how so many people give these people so much credence and attention. The guy literally doesn't know what he is a talking about. Also 3d artists and game testers/QA/etc are transferable skills just like programmers.

What does it matter that he isn't a game developer? I don't need to be an industrial revolution era child factory worker to understand that the conditions they labored under were inhumane.

Re: Making Video Games Is Not a Dream Job

#212

Post by r_smart »

ahelwer wrote: post #144
r_smart wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

|Unionisation may help By restricting the supply of talent, thus artificially driving up wages, but at the same time keeping a lot of people from being able to pursue their dream.

Unions improve compensation by increasing the share of the profits pie given (or returned, rather) to labor, not by putting a stranglehold on new hiring.

|Unions improve compensation by increasing the share of the profits pie given (or returned, rather) to labor

Revenue pie, not profits pie. A union will negotiate better terms for itself if the leadership thinks it's appropriate, regardless of the health of the company.

Re: Making Video Games Is Not a Dream Job

#213

Post by jamestenglish »

Cthulhu_ wrote: post #79
lovetocode wrote: post #6

Game developers let themselves be exploited with low pay and unpaid overtime. They should grow a spine and say no to ridiculous work conditions. I am tired of hearing about it. They don’t need to unionize, they need to realize that they have a unique and valuable skill set. If we are talking specifically about programmers, we have the fortunate leverage to tell our employers to go piss up a rope with the weekly job o…

The main problem with the game industry - I believe - is that for a lot of people it's a dream job, which means the supply for people to work in the industry far outweights that of the demand - meaning, if you're not doing crunch time, there's ten others waiting in line to take over. This is I think the problem in a lot of big employers with dubious worker practices - think Amazon, Uber, etc. They get away with it be…

This was my thought exactly! It is awfully pretentious to tell someone else what their "dream job" is. People value different things and there are a ton of people who value the ability to work on a game over better working conditions.

As a society we do want to protect people from exploitation, but a game developer is significantly different from the other 2 examples you used: amazon (I assume you meant warehouse) worker and uber driver. Those are low skill jobs so employers have all the leverage, I don't think many of them want to be an uber driver or warehouse worker.

Contrast that with a game dev, which is a very high skill job. They can take those skills into many other fields and make money, but they don't want to. Is that exploitation? I don't know, but it doesn't feel like it is to me.

Re: Making Video Games Is Not a Dream Job

#214

Post by SonnyWortzik »

Based on the recent article by Jason Schreier (Kotaku) about the complete disaster of Anthem game development, it puts into light the mismanagement and the exploitation of these developers to churn out games as if it were a factory floor with little time and pressured to deliver.

These developers are talented but you can only do so much with that talent when you have no time to demonstrate that talent and are being asked very unreasonable demands to deliver. Only to deliver a half baked product and asking their customers to dish-out $60+ to be a "beta" tester for a company racking up billions.

This unionization is a must. This exploitation has to stop.

Re: Making Video Games Is Not a Dream Job

#215

Post by Quarrelsome »

CM30 wrote: post #97

> For many kids who grew up with controllers in their hands, being a game developer is a dream job, so when it comes to talent, supply is higher than demand This is basically the reason for low wages in quite a few 'passion' driven industries. If a job is something enough people want to do, then talent is cheap and plentiful and companies can provide low wages and poor conditions that for every person who quits, ten…

Personally I would argue that in terms of education we need to encourage academia to give students a cash cow to milk prior to chasing their passion.

Learn the basics of a trade, THEN you can do Drama. There's this dreamy state of mind that bets way too much on making it and its important that "the worst case scenario" for an actor not making it isn't a dead-end job but a trade/profession they can also excel at.

Re: Making Video Games Is Not a Dream Job

#216

Post by r_smart »

bobthepanda wrote: post #173
ahelwer wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unions improve compensation by increasing the share of the profits pie given (or returned, rather) to labor, not by putting a stranglehold on new hiring.

You also don’t need a union to put a stranglehold on labor supply. See: doctors

I guess you could say it's not a union, but it's pretty much the same thing. At least, it's pulling the same levers to get desired outcomes.

Re: Making Video Games Is Not a Dream Job

#217

Post by mixmastamyk »

lovetocode wrote: post #152
Deinos wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I originally downvoted that comment, but removed it based on this comment. It takes a lot of character to admit making rash generalizations. Kudos! Back on topic, I think unions are like anything else; if they are not well managed/maintained, they can become top heavy and easily corrupted. The key (much like any other organization) is consistent involvement from membership to keep the top honest... and move leaders a…

> there is nothing keeping these individuals away from collective bargaining without forming an official union to do so. I think this is the main reason why I just "don't get" unions. Why do we have to put a name to it? Trying to understand unions, I guess it provides some sort of legitimacy to the organization. Or perhaps unions are more efficient at bargaining multiple issues simultaneously. I guess I am just reall…

> Why do we have to put a name to it?

To set up a communications and decision-making structure.

> hung up on paying a union money.

Agreed.

Am open to unions, but their worst tendencies such as significant monetary collection and (everyday) work obstruction should be against the rules. Just as anti-employee corporate policy should as well.

Re: Making Video Games Is Not a Dream Job

#218

Post by EliRivers »

Veen wrote: post #87
EliRivers wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

they need to realize that they have a unique and valuable skill set The competition to be a low-paid drone in game development is huge; significantly more than in non game dev. The games industry is powered by huge numbers of low-experience software engineers. They get paid in glamour and the thrill of being able to tell their friends they work in games. They could leave and go somewhere else for more money, but they…

> The competition to be a low-paid drone in game development is huge. That's precisely why unionization is the best course of action. Game development companies aren't threatened if individual developers demand better treatment because they can be replaced by the next starry-eyed young dev seeking prestige and glamour. But if enough of them unionize and collectively bargain for better conditions, the industry has to…

In the absence of other protections (and frankly, even in the presence of other protections), I'm a fan of unionisation, but I am from outside the USA; I understand people inside the USA commonly have different opinions about unions.

Re: Making Video Games Is Not a Dream Job

#219

Post by slg »

derefr wrote: post #171
CM30 wrote: post #97

> For many kids who grew up with controllers in their hands, being a game developer is a dream job, so when it comes to talent, supply is higher than demand This is basically the reason for low wages in quite a few 'passion' driven industries. If a job is something enough people want to do, then talent is cheap and plentiful and companies can provide low wages and poor conditions that for every person who quits, ten…

> the only practical solution is for people to stop taking on terrible jobs because of some sense of 'passion' So the “practical” solution is to change human nature? That doesn’t sound right. It’d be like saying that the practical solution to human trafficking is for people to stop visiting prostitutes; or that the solution to gangs’ drug income is for people to stop buying drugs. In all these cases, you can quash su…

>In this case, the demand is “the ability to express myself to a huge audience.” People are willing to pay to do that. Because of that, they see any job where they get to do it as a net positive, even if the job is horrible.

This is true for any job that is just an extension of a hobby. People put on local community theater productions in their spare time because they find it fun and fulfilling. You don't have to pay people to do that, so the pay for people to do it professionally would naturally be low in a free market system.

Do you know another profession like that? Software development. People spend countless hours working on open source software for free just because they like it. The open source community saves businesses billions in labor costs every year. Would anyone suggest we get rid of the open source community so developers could be better compensated? We are just lucky enough that the global demand for general software development is much higher than the demand for video game development or theater/TV/movies that it can offset these other factors.

Re: Making Video Games Is Not a Dream Job

#220

Post by Notorious_BLT »

navigatesol wrote: post #193
luiscleto wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Unionisation may help, but the only practical solution is for people to stop taking on terrible jobs because of some sense of 'passion', and to go where their skills are appreciated/where they're treated better/fairly compensated This. Unionisation is basically an attempt to reject the reality that there isn't enough demand for all that labor to be valuable at/above market-average. Ultimately I don't think there is…

> Unionisation is basically an attempt to reject the reality that there isn't enough demand for all that labor to be valuable at/above market-average. What a shallow definition of Unions. How about it's about grabbing a larger share of the pie for workers, so the CEO of Activation isn't making 300x the average worker? Or are you of the mind he's "earned" that?

Pretty sure that comment is referring to unionizing within the games industry where there is an overabundance of qualified people who want the jobs available.
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