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Making Video Games Is Not a Dream Job

nytimes.com

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Re: Making Video Games Is Not a Dream Job

#191

Post by sizzle »

CM30 wrote: post #97

> For many kids who grew up with controllers in their hands, being a game developer is a dream job, so when it comes to talent, supply is higher than demand This is basically the reason for low wages in quite a few 'passion' driven industries. If a job is something enough people want to do, then talent is cheap and plentiful and companies can provide low wages and poor conditions that for every person who quits, ten…

Will the influx of bootcamp grads cause the same effect on the supply and demand of developers?

Re: Making Video Games Is Not a Dream Job

#192

Post by ryandrake »

midnightclubbed wrote: post #137
Pfhreak wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Great question. They have pet features. Features with long estimates are targets for being cut. Give a long estimate, you risk not being able to build your feature. I once asked, how long to add analytics to your code? (I wrote a one line utility that could bundle up objects and fire them off for you.) The response was "three weeks per event". Guess which part of the code didn't have analytics. Now, at some level thi…

This and so much this. To elaborate on your point, say a programmer and a designer brainstorm an amazing new jetpack feature for the game. They spend a day (when they should be working on less interesting but planned features) on a quick first pass and show it to their PM. The PM asks how long it will take to complete, they say 3 weeks (2 days of UI/UX time to add the fuel bar, a week to tweak the feel and mechanic,…

This is why grownup software companies have milestones like “requirements freeze” and “feature freeze”, and strong project management leadership who enforce these things. Adding or changing requirements mid-project (or mid-sprint, if that’s how you roll) is very often harmful to a software program’s success.

Re: Making Video Games Is Not a Dream Job

#193

Post by navigatesol »

luiscleto wrote: post #148
CM30 wrote: post #97

> For many kids who grew up with controllers in their hands, being a game developer is a dream job, so when it comes to talent, supply is higher than demand This is basically the reason for low wages in quite a few 'passion' driven industries. If a job is something enough people want to do, then talent is cheap and plentiful and companies can provide low wages and poor conditions that for every person who quits, ten…

> Unionisation may help, but the only practical solution is for people to stop taking on terrible jobs because of some sense of 'passion', and to go where their skills are appreciated/where they're treated better/fairly compensated This. Unionisation is basically an attempt to reject the reality that there isn't enough demand for all that labor to be valuable at/above market-average. Ultimately I don't think there is…

>Unionisation is basically an attempt to reject the reality that there isn't enough demand for all that labor to be valuable at/above market-average.

What a shallow definition of Unions.

How about it's about grabbing a larger share of the pie for workers, so the CEO of Activation isn't making 300x the average worker? Or are you of the mind he's "earned" that?

Re: Making Video Games Is Not a Dream Job

#194

Post by navigatesol »

magduf wrote: post #141
hnarn wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I see a lot of anti-union talk on HN That's because most people on HN are from the U.S. where a century of propaganda has convinced most people not only that poor people are lazy, but by extension that unions are evil, corrupt and lazy organizations infiltrated by organized crime. While this propaganda has a minority basis in reality in some cases, as all propaganda will have because propaganda can't be 100% fantas…

>but by extension that unions are evil, corrupt and lazy organizations infiltrated by organized crime. That's because, in the US, it's all true, historically. Auto unions were a big reason why Detroit's automakers were so uncompetitive against the Japanese automakers in the 80s; autoworkers got ridiculous pay for menial work, which is why Detroit moved a lot of their production to Mexico and Canada, and other automak…

>which is why Detroit moved a lot of their production to Mexico and Canada

Well, I'm pretty sure those auto jobs in Canada were also high paying and unionized.

Source: I worked for one through University.

Re: Making Video Games Is Not a Dream Job

#195

Post by ctdonath »

For a while I taught introductory programming to bright-eyed prospective game creators. The analogy I would use up front: driving a car is very different from building one; just because you liked playing games doesn't mean you'll like creating games - whatever part of "development" you're involved in.

Of the hundreds I taught, I'm only aware of one who went on to "making video games" - and yes it was his dream job, he's willing to put in the insane effort & hours to make it happen, and he was duly rewarded. Killing Floor 2 FTW :-)

Re: Making Video Games Is Not a Dream Job

#196

Post by dom96 »

yomly wrote: post #134
CM30 wrote: post #97

> For many kids who grew up with controllers in their hands, being a game developer is a dream job, so when it comes to talent, supply is higher than demand This is basically the reason for low wages in quite a few 'passion' driven industries. If a job is something enough people want to do, then talent is cheap and plentiful and companies can provide low wages and poor conditions that for every person who quits, ten…

Can confirm this having accidentally ended up working in the Media industry (in a non-passion capacity). More pertinently, I know someone trying to get an entry level role in a similar passion field and is struggling. Adding to the problem is: - Passion fields are quite insular and like to only hire from within the industry - Nepotism is everywhere. In something like art, hiring so and so's son/daughter may cost you…

Nepotism is so pervasive and so horrible that I believe it should be outlawed.

My SO is trying to get into the Media industry and I am myself incredibly frustrated for her sake by the amount of nepotism she experiences, when you've got assistants who are rude to everyone and lazy outright at a company but can't be fired because one of the producers knows their mother it's pretty freaking annoying.

Re: Making Video Games Is Not a Dream Job

#197

Post by 4RealFreedom »

hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #153
yomly wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can confirm this having accidentally ended up working in the Media industry (in a non-passion capacity). More pertinently, I know someone trying to get an entry level role in a similar passion field and is struggling. Adding to the problem is: - Passion fields are quite insular and like to only hire from within the industry - Nepotism is everywhere. In something like art, hiring so and so's son/daughter may cost you…

> Nepotism is everywhere. In something like art, hiring so and so's son/daughter may cost you $30k but could close you a $10M deal which is good business This is so true, and why you always see royals/semi-royals/royal-hangers-on work in a gallery/auction/museum capacity.

I worked for a large cable company and nepotism was rampant there as well. It seems that if money is involved then nepotism follows.

Re: Making Video Games Is Not a Dream Job

#198

Post by mailslot »

lovetocode wrote: post #6

Game developers let themselves be exploited with low pay and unpaid overtime. They should grow a spine and say no to ridiculous work conditions. I am tired of hearing about it. They don’t need to unionize, they need to realize that they have a unique and valuable skill set. If we are talking specifically about programmers, we have the fortunate leverage to tell our employers to go piss up a rope with the weekly job o…

Every game development job I’ve had has been terrible by any measure... but I still crave to go back.

It’s easy to put in long hours when everyone else does and you genuinely enjoy their company.

It’s easy to forgo pay, when you have equity.

You’re just never going to get the opportunity to work creatively with a talented team at Wells Fargo. It’s a totally different experience.

If you’re concerned about a work/life balance or compensation, it’s not for you. I’d hate if game development turned into a typical corporate 9-5, and was inclusive of all skill levels.

Pay is decent, if you’re established and are at the top of your game.

Re: Making Video Games Is Not a Dream Job

#199

Post by [deleted] »

navigatesol wrote: post #193
luiscleto wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Unionisation may help, but the only practical solution is for people to stop taking on terrible jobs because of some sense of 'passion', and to go where their skills are appreciated/where they're treated better/fairly compensated This. Unionisation is basically an attempt to reject the reality that there isn't enough demand for all that labor to be valuable at/above market-average. Ultimately I don't think there is…

> Unionisation is basically an attempt to reject the reality that there isn't enough demand for all that labor to be valuable at/above market-average. What a shallow definition of Unions. How about it's about grabbing a larger share of the pie for workers, so the CEO of Activation isn't making 300x the average worker? Or are you of the mind he's "earned" that?

[deleted]

Re: Making Video Games Is Not a Dream Job

#200

Post by gordaco »

Funes- wrote: post #135
hnarn wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I see a lot of anti-union talk on HN That's because most people on HN are from the U.S. where a century of propaganda has convinced most people not only that poor people are lazy, but by extension that unions are evil, corrupt and lazy organizations infiltrated by organized crime. While this propaganda has a minority basis in reality in some cases, as all propaganda will have because propaganda can't be 100% fantas…

>If you ask someone from Spain or Germany about unions and attempt to explain why they're "evil" from the US perspective, I can guarantee you will be met with complete disbelief . How can you possibly guarantee (no less!) what someone, regardless of where they come from, will say about any subject? You cannot complain about generalizations and broad statements, as in here: >...a century of propaganda has convinced mo…

You can always join CGT [1]. They take tech workers seriously and they have presence on most tech companies.

Leave the more general, "politics" side of unions (calling for general strikes, and so on) to CCOO and UGT, and make use of another union to protect you when your company tries to abuse you. Also, if you're not satisfied with what the unions do, you can always the works council. A workmate of mine is in our company's works council and she isn't even part of any union.

Also, in my experience CCOO and UGT are not nearly as bad as the media paints them (again, I'm talking about what's going on at companies I've worked at). This may sound like a cliché, but really, there is an awful lot of propaganda against them because there are plenty of rich people interested in having an exploitable work force. The only real complain I have against CCOO and UGT is that they sometimes don't fight as hard as they should. But in many other cases they do. I've seen cases where these unions have successfully sued companies upon wrongful termination of workers, for example.

[1] https://www.cgtinformatica.org/

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