Making Video Games Is Not a Dream Job • Hacker News Board

Re: Making Video Games Is Not a Dream Job

#161

Post by slamberth » Fri, Apr 05, 2019, 2:54 PM UTC

beatgammit wrote: post #84

azhenley wrote: post #8

It is a dream job if I’m my own boss.

Exactly. My dream scenario is to be in a situation like Tarn Adams, who works on a game he loves and lives off donations. Ideally, by that point I'd have enough to sustain myself without donations so that source of stress is gone. I don't want to work in the AAA game industry, I want to work for myself in the indie game industry on a project that both I and my supporters love.

Unfortunately, that situation caught up with Tarn recently. They've had to change their whole model due to rising health care costs and are now hoping for actual sales to keep them afloat.

I think that just shows how all of the factors in the article (work conditions, health care, "crunch") are intertwined. People are torn between doing what they love and doing what pays well so they can stay afloat.

Re: Making Video Games Is Not a Dream Job

#162

Post by jtms » Fri, Apr 05, 2019, 2:54 PM UTC

Pfhreak wrote: post #38

whatshisface wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If they're wrong in thinking that it's necessary, then anyone who comes in with an enlightened view will put them out of business and take over the market.

Some shops are doing well and are crunch free. Not sure at the AAA level yet, but definitely at the big indie level.

I’m glad to hear that seeing as “big indie” is where all the best gameplay innovation tends to come from. Many AAA titles are actually quite dull and repetitive affairs. They get wrapped in a super pretty and eye candy laden veneer so you don’t notice the underlying mechanics and gameplay are actually exactly the same as the previous 400 entries of whatever franchise

Re: Making Video Games Is Not a Dream Job

#163

Post by leftyted » Fri, Apr 05, 2019, 2:55 PM UTC

Making video games is a dream job because lots of people want to make video games. Amazing that some people choose jobs for reasons other than high salary, job security, and low stress. Shocking that some people are actually motivated by oh, I don't know, actual interest in an industry!

We can force employers to treat game devs differently via unionization or laws. If people want to discuss these kinds of measures, that's fine. But these people ought to recognize that these regulations will involve trade-offs. If you think the trade-offs are worth it, cool, but please acknowledge them.

My feeling is that highly skilled programmers who are incredibly in demand in every industry do not need unions or special legal protection. They have options. Only by denying the existence of their free will can we pretend that this is a serious problem.

Re: Making Video Games Is Not a Dream Job

#164

Post by luiscleto » Fri, Apr 05, 2019, 2:55 PM UTC

DangitBobby wrote: post #160

luiscleto wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Unionisation may help, but the only practical solution is for people to stop taking on terrible jobs because of some sense of 'passion', and to go where their skills are appreciated/where they're treated better/fairly compensated This. Unionisation is basically an attempt to reject the reality that there isn't enough demand for all that labor to be valuable at/above market-average. Ultimately I don't think there is…

I think it's a difficult claim to make that there's no demand when they specifically state that unpaid overtime is the norm. Why would they need overtime work if there were enough workers?

They don't need it. They do it because it's more profitable. If you don't want those conditions they can easily find someone else willing to accept them due to the huge hiring pool available.

Edit: you're far less likely to risk burning out your employees if they are hard to replace.

Re: Making Video Games Is Not a Dream Job

#165

Post by PorterDuff » Fri, Apr 05, 2019, 2:57 PM UTC

To what extent is the video game industry crunch culture driven by non-negotiable deadlines? (trade shows, Christmas, movie releases)

Re: Making Video Games Is Not a Dream Job

#166

Post by nf05papsjfVbc » Fri, Apr 05, 2019, 2:57 PM UTC

merpnderp wrote: post #138

maxehmookau wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>They should grow a spine and say no to ridiculous work conditions. YES! You're absolutely right! > They don’t need to unionize. Err... Why on earth not? That would literally be the definition of growing a spine and saying no to ridiculous work conditions but also having it be effective.

If you have two people equally passionate and capable about doing a job, but one wants more money for fewer hours and the other is happy with less money for more hours, why should the more costly, less productive person get the job?

Exactly! And of course this ought to go further and only the desperate are ultimately deserving of that job. They won't even demand safe working conditions. They'll be grateful for the opportunity. It's not slavery if the employer doesn't "own" that person.

Re: Making Video Games Is Not a Dream Job

#167

Post by rossdavidh » Fri, Apr 05, 2019, 2:57 PM UTC

DangitBobby wrote: post #160

luiscleto wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Unionisation may help, but the only practical solution is for people to stop taking on terrible jobs because of some sense of 'passion', and to go where their skills are appreciated/where they're treated better/fairly compensated This. Unionisation is basically an attempt to reject the reality that there isn't enough demand for all that labor to be valuable at/above market-average. Ultimately I don't think there is…

I think it's a difficult claim to make that there's no demand when they specifically state that unpaid overtime is the norm. Why would they need overtime work if there were enough workers?

I think the fact that they can get unpaid work, means they don't need to pay for it. Why pay for 10 people when you can get 5 to do it? No matter how little you pay for labor, free (i.e. unpaid overtime) is cheaper.

Re: Making Video Games Is Not a Dream Job

#168

Post by ghaff » Fri, Apr 05, 2019, 2:58 PM UTC

yomly wrote: post #134

CM30 wrote: post #97

> For many kids who grew up with controllers in their hands, being a game developer is a dream job, so when it comes to talent, supply is higher than demand This is basically the reason for low wages in quite a few 'passion' driven industries. If a job is something enough people want to do, then talent is cheap and plentiful and companies can provide low wages and poor conditions that for every person who quits, ten…

Can confirm this having accidentally ended up working in the Media industry (in a non-passion capacity). More pertinently, I know someone trying to get an entry level role in a similar passion field and is struggling. Adding to the problem is: - Passion fields are quite insular and like to only hire from within the industry - Nepotism is everywhere. In something like art, hiring so and so's son/daughter may cost you…

There can also just be a lot of randomness involved. How many actors hit at least B-list status because of some TV show that ends up a big hit and then they never really get a significant role again? [ADDED: Or, for that matter, the many other actors of similar talent who didn't click with the casting director for that role for whatever reason and never got that break at all.]

Re: Making Video Games Is Not a Dream Job

#169

Post by justin66 » Fri, Apr 05, 2019, 2:58 PM UTC

magduf wrote: post #141

hnarn wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I see a lot of anti-union talk on HN That's because most people on HN are from the U.S. where a century of propaganda has convinced most people not only that poor people are lazy, but by extension that unions are evil, corrupt and lazy organizations infiltrated by organized crime. While this propaganda has a minority basis in reality in some cases, as all propaganda will have because propaganda can't be 100% fantas…

>but by extension that unions are evil, corrupt and lazy organizations infiltrated by organized crime. That's because, in the US, it's all true, historically. Auto unions were a big reason why Detroit's automakers were so uncompetitive against the Japanese automakers in the 80s; autoworkers got ridiculous pay for menial work, which is why Detroit moved a lot of their production to Mexico and Canada, and other automak…

We've had singularly successful industries like Hollywood rely on unions as well - SAG, WGA, IATSE, etc. Their work bears a lot more similarity to software development than the auto industry does, so hopefully that is food for thought.

It's fair enough to say that American auto unions (and very importantly, auto company management and ownership) would do well to model themselves after Germany's system. It's not a universal truth that all our unions are ineffective.

Re: Making Video Games Is Not a Dream Job

#170

Post by rongenre » Fri, Apr 05, 2019, 2:58 PM UTC

I left an engineering job at a finance startup in the mid 90's to take a "dream job" at a video game startup. It was.. awful: all the fun and creativity was being done by on the production/game design part, and the engineering was... both demanding and boring at the same time.

It was weird realizing I was happier and feeling more creatively engaged when I was figuring out how to price derivatives.