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Google cancels AI ethics board in response to outcry

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Re: Google cancels AI ethics board in response to outcry

#221
post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe I'm wrong here, but I think a real challenge is that a group of only leading thinkers from academia and industry has a very good chance of being labeled partisan -- possibly with good reason. The American population's opinions are not well represented among that group. (edit) Maybe what you're getting at is that the mission of the group should be more explicitly non-partisan, and then hopefully politics stays a…

> The American population's opinions are not well represented among that group. I grew up in small town rural Pennsylvania in a lower middle class family. I'm certainly now someone who is "in the industry". What differentiates me from myself twenty years ago is twenty years of learning and experience. I went to school, I had jobs. What you're implying is that even someone like me wouldn't have a representative opinio…

I think there's a subtle misreading here.

The phrase "leading thinkers" is loaded with meaning. It's a phrase used almost exclusively by one political grouping to mean "people who think just like us". It should be obvious that it can't have any objective meaning (leading according to whom?).

To see this try replacing it with "leading thinktanks". Sounds quite different now, right? Thinktanks are organisations associated with conservative thought. If I heard someone talk about how they were assembling "trusted voices from leading thinktanks" I'd assume the resulting group would have a conservative bent. Maybe it's just me.

It means that expert opinions are inherently untrusted

This is in fact the default viewpoint of large chunks of the population and is a key aspect of conservative thought: it's not as dumb as it sounds either. Problems with the opposite, i.e. expert opinion being inherently trusted:

1. How do you decide who is an expert?

2. Oh, credentials? Credentials which are awarded by ... more people claiming to be expert. How do you know that credential doesn't just mean someone toed the conventional orthodoxy?

3. If expertise is unquestionably real it tends to be concrete and narrow e.g. expertise in how to program computers or construct skyscrapers. It's easy to test claims of expertise by comparison to real world results. But the type of people frequently cited as experts in policy discussions tend to claim to be experts in very vague and expansive subjects like "Asian politics" or "social psychology" or "national security", where testing against reality isn't easy. This undermines the word "expert" in the sense Google has used it here to mean "experts in how to construct AI ethics boards" (where do such people come from again?).

4. Many experts who do make testable results turn out to be frequently wrong and sometimes uselessly so. This is especially true in economics, e.g. mainstream economists failing to predict the financial crisis, health experts being unable to decide if foodstuffs cause cancer or prevent it.

You can't assume that reverence for "experts" defined as people labelled as experts by the media, academia and "leading thinkers" is automatically virtuous or right.

Re: Google cancels AI ethics board in response to outcry

#222
post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Case in point though: People need to be able to communicate, so don't downvote him.

> Case in point though: People need to be able to communicate, so don't downvote him. " What's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander. " A political group who advocates deplatforming as a means of quashing "wrong" opinions has no right to complain when their own opinions are deplatformed by the public.

He's not complaining and again, it's not that he deservers to be able to talk, it's that people deserve to hear anything that is out there.

Re: Google cancels AI ethics board in response to outcry

#223
post #24
post #7

Why can’t leadership at Google stand by any of their decisions, instead of caving in to the demands of a small yet vocal group of people.

Engineering at Google objected, and leadership at Google can't do anything without engineering at Google.

Vocal minority?

Re: Google cancels AI ethics board in response to outcry

#224
post #51

I fail to understand. Is “comments” and “views on issues” enough to cause such a stir? People’s sensitivity boggles my mind. Can we not say things without having to walk on eggshells? What kind of unforgiving and judgemental culture are we living in?

If it makes you feel any better, not everywhere is like that. I work at a mid sized technology consulting company on the east coast, and I've heard multiple managers say that they hate when they have to manage developers from the west coast. My manager told us about a time she got a nasty email from the lead developer of a team because she started an email with "Hey guys" instead of a gender neutral greeting.

I’ve heard the same protest that MITM attack should be changed to “person-in-the-middle” attack. From west coast professionals no doubt.

Re: Google cancels AI ethics board in response to outcry

#225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not really regional. I have noticed this most from folks who are transitioning genders. Some are OK with "they", but some prefer folks to go above and beyond to affirm their new gender, thus objecting to "dude" and "guys". As a result, I've gotten into the habit of saying "y'all" and "folks" even though I'd otherwise never have used these words.

It is regional outside of the USA, quickly gaining gender neutrality in the UK, Australia, India, .... y’all or folks won’t cut it in those places.

Folk is fine in the UK and works well, as does "everybody".

Re: Google cancels AI ethics board in response to outcry

#226
post #219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You think by throwing around labels he want two-way communication?

You missed it. Doesn't matter how wrong he might be, people need to see what everyone has to say. It's not for him, it's for others.

They will, just in light grey; and they'll also see its not an acceptable argument.

Re: Google cancels AI ethics board in response to outcry

#227
post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If it makes you feel any better, not everywhere is like that. I work at a mid sized technology consulting company on the east coast, and I've heard multiple managers say that they hate when they have to manage developers from the west coast. My manager told us about a time she got a nasty email from the lead developer of a team because she started an email with "Hey guys" instead of a gender neutral greeting.

Strange, I consider "guys" to be gender neutral. Presumably "guys and gals" would be offensive to non-binary folk? So what's the acceptable format? "guys, gals, and... others?"

All,

Please make sure to put a cover sheet on your TPS reports.

Team,

Please make sure to put a cover sheet on your TPS reports.

Everyone,

Please make sure to put a cover sheet on your TPS reports.

Good Afternoon/Morning,

Please make sure to put a cover sheet on your TPS reports.

Staff,

Please make sure to put a cover sheet on your TPS reports.

I just quickly browsed through my emails I've received this year (coworkers, customers, vendors) and that covers all the ones I've received. All of those are perfectly acceptable.

I wouldn't be personally use "guys," "gals," or "guys and gals" in a non-friend situation.

Re: Google cancels AI ethics board in response to outcry

#228
post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you think of a conservative who you don't think holds "ignorant or harmful opinions"? If not, all you've said is that conservatives shouldn't be allowed a voice in context such as this. I for one, although not a conservative, think that conservative thinkers may have important contributions to make to ethical debates around technology and AI.

> conservative thinkers may have important contributions to make to ethical debates around technology and AI. "Conservative" is a word that has become overloaded. Same with "liberal". In fact progressive/conservative and liberal/illiberal are orthogonal axes. I don't have a problem with conservatism, per se—I have a problem with illiberalism, and that's what's on display here. On an abstract level I think "diversity…

That was a more thoughtful response than I expected. Thank you. I largely agree, but I do think that a reasonable and intelligent person can disagree with transgender activism or gay marriage, for example, and still make a useful contribution in many areas of society, including the one under discussion.

Conservatives will almost always be "behind" progressives where progressive social issues are concerned, by definition. Even when they aren't trash-talking outrage merchants, they are inclined to support traditional institutions and social arrangements. There needn't be any malice in this: they want to conserve the good and are hesitant to overturn age-old ways of being for fear of unintended consequences.

That's precisely why I think theirs is a position worth listening to in debates around the ethics of new technologies and their possible impact on society. It's an important consideration and one we're not going to hear from techno-utopians or many on the left.

Re: Google cancels AI ethics board in response to outcry

#229
If you want people to believe something unreasonable stop trying to reason with them, this is the result of deplatforming.

Resorting to ostracisation is proof that your point of view is unreasonable, which then makes their point of view seem more reasonable as there is no counter.

This society seems obsessed with the idea of ostracisation and deplatforming its ultimately a breeding group for fascism and bigotry.

Re: Google cancels AI ethics board in response to outcry

#230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I don't know how we got here, it's a bit scary. I think we got here because of telecommunications and the internet. The world is joining up and a nascent collective mind is emerging. Like the individual mind it has a set of ideas about who it is and what it should be doing, a.k.a. an 'ego'. Many potential thoughts in a normal mind are continually being censored/suppressed because they do not conform to those fixed i…

I'm not sure it's anything to do with the internet. A lot of this stuff is taking place offline - shouting people down at lectures and things like that. My own theory is it's due to the decline of religion. I say that as a non religious person who has lately started wondering if I'm so right to be that way (I never used to question the righteousness of scientific atheism). Religion can be defined as a moral framework…

Everyone worships something. You can worship deity, the State, or yourself.

Those working tirelessly to shut down contrary thoughts and opinions and playing semantics games are doing so with a religious fervor and to redefine social norms to their own worldview.

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