Earlier quoted context omitted.
FWIW, I think you might be misreading the audience of the post. The majority of readers at LW subscribe to not-directly-causal decision theories under which they would cooperate with another rational agent in the one-shot PD; it may distract you, but not most. I agree with you, however, that it isn't the greatest analogy.
Are you talking about Superrationality ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superrationality )? Still strikes me as changing the rules and then pretending you've said something new about the original unchanged form. Kind of like saying you'd choose white in the "You must choose black game". I'm a bit disappointed if this kind of sloppy logic/mysticism is popular on LessWrong.
Defecting by Accident - A Flaw Common to Analytical People
21–30 of 47 posts
Re: Defecting by Accident - A Flaw Common to Analytical People
#22I also found his book "Thank you for arguing" really interesting and informative.
His essay is a delightful read. His book, unfortunately, somewhat more heavy handed... but still worth your consideration in my opinion.
Re: Defecting by Accident - A Flaw Common to Analytical People
#23Earlier quoted context omitted.
FWIW, I think you might be misreading the audience of the post. The majority of readers at LW subscribe to not-directly-causal decision theories under which they would cooperate with another rational agent in the one-shot PD; it may distract you, but not most. I agree with you, however, that it isn't the greatest analogy.
Are you talking about Superrationality ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superrationality )? Still strikes me as changing the rules and then pretending you've said something new about the original unchanged form. Kind of like saying you'd choose white in the "You must choose black game". I'm a bit disappointed if this kind of sloppy logic/mysticism is popular on LessWrong.
http://lesswrong.com/lw/tn/the_true_prisoners_dilemma/
Actually, in a follow-up he's clearer in a comment:
"As someone who rejects defection as the inevitable rational solution to both the one-shot PD and the iterated PD, I'm interested in the inconsistency of those who accept defection as the rational equilibrium in the one-shot PD, but find excuses to reject it in the finitely iterated known-horizon PD."
from http://lesswrong.com/lw/to/the_truly_iterated_prisoners_dile...
Haven't found an actual explanation of why he thinks co-operation is rational in a one-shot PD yet though. He's demonstrated that he understands the problem enough to describe why it's counter-intuitive, so I'm going to assume that whatever his reason is it's something a bit crazy, rather than just dumb.
Re: Defecting by Accident - A Flaw Common to Analytical People
#24My mom often insisted on the importance of criticising with care, to avoid making the other feel bad. Yet I needed this article, written in a foreign language by a complete stranger, before I realized on a gut level that she's right.
And it's not the first time. So, note to self: Mom is right until proven wrong.
Re: Defecting by Accident - A Flaw Common to Analytical People
#25Is it that important to be correct? Just go with the flow, it's social lubrication. Try to just go with it, vibe! [1]
> GOOD VIBING:
GUY: You’ll never guess how much I got this coat for.
FRIEND: Wow.. Umm, 200$.
GUY: No man. 45$
FRIEND: Wow.. Nice man.
BAD VIBING:
GUY: You’ll never guess how much I got this coat for.
FRIEND: Oh you got a deal. I guess 30$ then.
GUY: Umm, actually 45$
FRIEND: Oh.. well that’s not bad.
I've gotten better as I've gotten older, and I remember times where I've literally butted horns with my dad - over such things as silly as how far into the intersection should you go when making a left turn. I didn't want to get caught in the intersection so I always waited until the last moment to spurt forward and make the turn quickly as the light turned yellow. My dad on the other hand - believed it should be halfway or whatever in the intersection - and even Google'd up a DOT/Driver's Manual to prove his point - and CC'd all our other family members who had no interest/idea we were so fired up about our respective viewpoints.
[1] "Social Vibing"
http://www.bristollair.com/2008/outer-game/pua-skills/social...
Re: Defecting by Accident - A Flaw Common to Analytical People
#26I've always suspect that the almost ritualistic indulgence in self deprecating humor common in many places I've worked is pretty much the antidote to the "over direct" form of communication that technical types are so prone to. This is probably related to the suspicion that people aren't completely comfortable working together unless you have all got very drunk at some point.... but perhaps that's because I am Scotti…
Can you give some examples, though? I can't really see how you could turn, say, the "budget" issue from TFA into a self-deprecating thing.
But that is because I suck dicks.
(Am I doing it right?)
Re: Defecting by Accident - A Flaw Common to Analytical People
#27This matches my experience exactly. So many times people, especially technical people, have something to say, some information to convey, and almost arbitrarily many ways to say it. They then, from among those arbitrarily many ways, fail to exercise any judgement as to which is going to achieve secondary goals of improving working relationships, making people feel good, getting people on-side, and generally improving…
Pretty moot argument. If technical people spent a significant part of their time on how to bring a message instead of the content of the message, they would hardly be technical people. You need smart minds to be doing what they are good at. It's pretty obvious why different people have different tasks, you wouldn't let a person from PR do a technical design, and you wouldn't let someone from technical design do the P…
You spelled awkward wrong, asshat.
Re: Defecting by Accident - A Flaw Common to Analytical People
#28This matches my experience exactly. So many times people, especially technical people, have something to say, some information to convey, and almost arbitrarily many ways to say it. They then, from among those arbitrarily many ways, fail to exercise any judgement as to which is going to achieve secondary goals of improving working relationships, making people feel good, getting people on-side, and generally improving…
Pretty moot argument. If technical people spent a significant part of their time on how to bring a message instead of the content of the message, they would hardly be technical people. You need smart minds to be doing what they are good at. It's pretty obvious why different people have different tasks, you wouldn't let a person from PR do a technical design, and you wouldn't let someone from technical design do the P…
You are presenting a dichotomy, that technical people can be smart or empathic but not both. Citation, please? I am keenly interested in learning why smart minds cannot be good at "what they are good at" if they take the time to improve their empathy and communication skills.
Re: Defecting by Accident - A Flaw Common to Analytical People
#29Earlier quoted context omitted.
Are you talking about Superrationality ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superrationality )? Still strikes me as changing the rules and then pretending you've said something new about the original unchanged form. Kind of like saying you'd choose white in the "You must choose black game". I'm a bit disappointed if this kind of sloppy logic/mysticism is popular on LessWrong.
Yes, I'm talking about superrationality and decision theories that accommodate it, like evidential decision theory (you should make decisions that serve as evidence for the outcome you desire; e.g. you should cooperate, because doing so is evidence that a corresponding EDT-using rational partner will also cooperate) and Eliezer's pet timeless decision theory (roughly, your decisions should be treated as if you were m…
However, from a quick look through this interpretation makes it an even worse analogy, even if you overlook not flagging it up as an unconventional take on PD for outsiders.