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Boeing CEO Dennis Muilenburg Addresses the Ethiopian Airlines Flight 302 Report

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Re: Boeing CEO Dennis Muilenburg Addresses the Ethiopian Airlines Flight 302 Report

#251

Post by matt4077 »

93s6oz wrote: post #43
781 wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, then I'm irrational too, because I won't set foot in a 737 MAX after this shitfest. The FAA also lost a lot of trust, for rubber-stamping this. The first accident was maybe understandable. We all know that shit happens. But Boeing has zero excuses for not immediately grounding the whole fleet after, and for putting out that useless recovery procedure which didn't work in this case. They let a deadly plane fly f…

>The FAA also lost a lot of trust, for rubber-stamping this. I wonder if the European agency (don't remember the name) will stop trusting the FAA from now on and do their own tests. I'd thank them for that. (According to what I read here, the European agency doesn't do exhaustive tests because they mostly trust whatever the FAA says; maybe that's false)

Europe and the FAA have Cross-certification schemes. In reverse, Airbus is certified primarily in Europe. The same happens to varying degrees in medicines, appliances, etc.

This is unlikely to change. It’s expected that some changes will occur at the FAA. Certifying an airliner is also a prohibitively expensive undertaking, which is part of the reason for this mess in the first place. It would take years even to train enough personnel to duplicate all those efforts.

Re: Boeing CEO Dennis Muilenburg Addresses the Ethiopian Airlines Flight 302 Report

#252

Post by justincormack »

cm2187 wrote: post #53
ams6110 wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see this playing out in a couple of possible ways. One is that it ends up like the DC-10. Public confidence is lost, even though the problem is fixed. The aircraft end up going into freighter service. The other is that they make a convincing case that the problem is resolved. I don't know if that's possible given today's default hate for big corporations, we'll see. They've done it before with the 737 and the rudde…

In all fairness this plane is only a danger to its crew (and to regular commuters). Even without the software fix, the probability that you get into a crash in one of the few times in a year when you make a leg in this plane is still infinitesimal. For the crew that spends the whole year in there, different story.

That is not how plane safety is done.

Re: Boeing CEO Dennis Muilenburg Addresses the Ethiopian Airlines Flight 302 Report

#253

Post by tomp »

objektif wrote: post #131
traek wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Affordable air travel is in most people's interests.

Safe travel surprasses affordable for ALL customers not most.

Then why do people still drive (i.e. use cars)?

Re: Boeing CEO Dennis Muilenburg Addresses the Ethiopian Airlines Flight 302 Report

#254

Post by tomp »

Stryder wrote: post #24
781 wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, then I'm irrational too, because I won't set foot in a 737 MAX after this shitfest. The FAA also lost a lot of trust, for rubber-stamping this. The first accident was maybe understandable. We all know that shit happens. But Boeing has zero excuses for not immediately grounding the whole fleet after, and for putting out that useless recovery procedure which didn't work in this case. They let a deadly plane fly f…

The integrity of engineering excellence should never be sacrificed for profit and/or conveniency in places where it involves human lives. Realistically and pragmatically speaking, you only ever get to have just one single shot at establishing and maintaining that kind of life/death level of trust. Fuck it up, and you're gone- quite literally, mind you. This is some Challenger O-ring type of shitshow. Accidents are on…

In my mind, the difference between science and engineering is that science is concerned about what's provably true, whereas engineering (and I include applied math and even medicine here) is about getting to a result.

Therefore, our medicine is not perfectly safe, our cars are not perfectly safe, our building are not perfectly safe, we don't / can't provide 100% health coverage to everyone, and so on... but in aggregate, they make the world a better place, so it's worth it.

Re: Boeing CEO Dennis Muilenburg Addresses the Ethiopian Airlines Flight 302 Report

#255

Post by ekianjo »

ndespres wrote: post #55

I know better than to read between the lines on a press release like this, but can't help but notice that it falls far short of accepting responsibility for the problem. He admits that MCAS "activated in response to erroneous angle of attack information" but doesn't admit that this alone directly resulted in the crashes. Rather, he implies that this sets off a chain of events which the pilots are unable to deal with…

Companies will usually not admit any kind of fault because it opens for door for trials and so on. You should not expect a press release like this to fall into self incrimination. Press releases are reviewed by groups of lawyers as well so they will edit the language carefully.

Re: Boeing CEO Dennis Muilenburg Addresses the Ethiopian Airlines Flight 302 Report

#256

Post by mtgx »

pauljurczak wrote: post #180
bitreality wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With the way litigation works, corporations will never admit blame for anything, since it greatly increases their legal risk. It's unfortunate, but their responsibilities lie with their shareholders, not the people who lost their lives on their planes.

> their responsibilities lie with their shareholders This is the "shareholder value" theory, modern economists successfully brainwashed the population with. It became popular during the 1980s, "greed is good" times. It's just an ideology disguised as a science. The purpose and structure of modern corporation hasn't changed in the last hundred years or so. In 1950s and 1960s the public good, among others, role of corp…

Sen. Elizabeth Warren's Accountable Capitalism Act seems like a great step in the right direction to make this more clear.

https://www.warren.senate.gov/newsroom/press-releases/warren...

Re: Boeing CEO Dennis Muilenburg Addresses the Ethiopian Airlines Flight 302 Report

#257

Post by faizmokhtar »

jfptech wrote: post #129

Airbus had similar issues a while back. The software was forcing the nose of the plane down and the pilots had to fight with it to bring the plane out of a dive. Is it absolutely necessary for the computer to be adjusting the angle of attack? https://www.smh.com.au/lifestyle/the-untold-story-of-qf72-wh... https://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/investigation_reports/2... *edited to cite sources

lol. This is not a similar issue at all. This is just corruption at its finest.

Re: Boeing CEO Dennis Muilenburg Addresses the Ethiopian Airlines Flight 302 Report

#258

Post by OneWordSoln »

acqq wrote: post #238
_sh wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed, the whole press release brings to mind a couple of points from "Engineering a Safer World" which, if you're interested in this stuff, I can't recommend enough[0]. In the section "Questioning the Foundations of Traditional Safety Engineering": Old Assumption Most accidents are caused by operator error. Rewarding safe behaviour and punishing unsafe behaviours will eliminate or reduce accidents significantly. Ne…

The same quotes in an easier to read format, and I agree with them: "Old Assumption - Most accidents are caused by operator error. Rewarding safe behaviour and punishing unsafe behaviours will eliminate or reduce accidents significantly. New Assumption - Operator error is a product of the environment in which it occurs. To reduce operator "error" we must change the environment in which the operator works. --- Old Ass…

What a fantastic talk! Witty, well-paced and truly insightful.

"Operator error is a symptom, not a cause."

Ms. Leveson's book "Engineering a Safer World" has a free PDF download at http://sunnyday.mit.edu/safer-world.pdf

Re: Boeing CEO Dennis Muilenburg Addresses the Ethiopian Airlines Flight 302 Report

#259

Post by sundvor »

Latteland wrote: post #196
ndespres wrote: post #55

I know better than to read between the lines on a press release like this, but can't help but notice that it falls far short of accepting responsibility for the problem. He admits that MCAS "activated in response to erroneous angle of attack information" but doesn't admit that this alone directly resulted in the crashes. Rather, he implies that this sets off a chain of events which the pilots are unable to deal with…

Yeah, this is better than their initial "what, me worry" response. They should just own up to their screw up. They will owe giant fines and be sued. Their reputation is what is more important long term. Own up to the change.

I would trust them infinitely more if they could just say we fucked up, sorry, we'll fix it properly, then take a hard look in the mirror, and change.

Re: Boeing CEO Dennis Muilenburg Addresses the Ethiopian Airlines Flight 302 Report

#260

Post by asimjalis »

caf wrote: post #187
angstrom wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Black box high five for the win, amirite?! Roll it back up to the top of the hill and lets see if it records something different... It's sad, but most faults seem to be like this. First one is treated as an anomaly, second one is treated as the start of a trend. It happens so many times I'm glad I'm not working with human lives.

Jamais deux sans trois

“Never twice without a third time.”
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