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Google cancels AI ethics board in response to outcry

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Re: Google cancels AI ethics board in response to outcry

#81

I thought this twitter thread by Kelsey Piper was pretty good: > as I look through her history I am mostly confused why she was chosen in the first place. She doesn't have any background in tech. She doesn't have any prior writing or research related to AI. No background in the other topics that come up - surveillance, data privacy, international security. She's mostly a culture warrior, so no wonder now we're having…

Let me be honest: every single candidate for the role has a past like this.

They're all weird. Because the whole field is a bunch of people who are experts in a field which has no differentiation in expertise.

It's a charlatan field.

Re: Google cancels AI ethics board in response to outcry

#82
post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If it makes you feel any better, not everywhere is like that. I work at a mid sized technology consulting company on the east coast, and I've heard multiple managers say that they hate when they have to manage developers from the west coast. My manager told us about a time she got a nasty email from the lead developer of a team because she started an email with "Hey guys" instead of a gender neutral greeting.

That is regional, though. I'm from New York and I've addressed groups of older female relatives as "you guys" without anyone batting an eye. In other parts of the country that's not common and people see "guys" as gendered, and people feel like you're forgetting they're there. The word "dude" as a form of address is gender neutral and business appropriate some places and not others. It's a hard problem: Y'all works s…

It's not really regional. I have noticed this most from folks who are transitioning genders. Some are OK with "they", but some prefer folks to go above and beyond to affirm their new gender, thus objecting to "dude" and "guys".

As a result, I've gotten into the habit of saying "y'all" and "folks" even though I'd otherwise never have used these words.

Re: Google cancels AI ethics board in response to outcry

#83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Is “comments” and “views on issues” enough to cause such a stir?' Why not? When people in positions of power hold ignorant and/or harmful opinions, a stir should be made. One individual in particular comes to mind. > What kind of unforgiving and judgemental culture are we living in? The kind where public figures curry favor with their bases of obstinately illiberal^[1] followers by intentionally spreading divisive…

This wasn't really a "position of power" though, it was just a council that would meet once in a while to talk about AI ethics. It was also 1 person out of 8. Don't get me wrong, I think her views are despicable, but if you can't even allow a single person of opposing view in your council, that only shows insecurity in your views. I highly doubt having one person with some past bigoted opinions is going to completely…

> some past bigoted opinions

These are not opinions she held in the past, these are opinions she holds now and which she actively promotes.

Re: Google cancels AI ethics board in response to outcry

#84

I don't get why Google caves to pressure from internal activism. Only 2000 of 98000 employees signed the letter. And they are themselves a very skewed cohort, unrepresentative of the general population of customers Google has.

I think the answer becomes clear if you just ask yourself a simple question: was Google aware that having an ideologically diverse panel would spark some sort of protest among at least a healthy handful of their employees? I find it extremely difficult to imagine the answer to that question is no. So why would they cave to something they knew they would provoke? Ah.

Google is increasingly clearly driven primarily, if not exclusively, by money + influence. An increasingly large number of voices have been calling for something like an ethics panel. And this was an appeasement to them and to those that feel Google puts its self interest ahead of ethics. And this panel would have been nothing but a self inflicted thorn for Google. They're not going to tell them how to make more money or gain more influence. Instead they would be more like to proposed Google temper their actions or even outright avoid certain potentially very profitable endeavors. And this would have been coming from a relatively authoritative group operating from within Google itself, making it quite difficult to ignore. And by the time they started making these recommendations it would have been difficult to torpedo the panel since it would appear that they were being torpedoed for what they said (which would be true), and that'd be some horrifically bad press for an already beleaguered company.

Now Google gets to not only pull the plug, but to also claim that claim they've tried to form an independent ethics panel of experts before but 'unfortunately' their employees were opposed to it. And at Google since we deeply care about the voices and opinions of our employees, we've decided that instituting such a panel is clearly not a productive idea. And they can now reference this incident anytime outside forces propose instituting third party panels. On top of this all they also get to gain some goodwill back from their employees. Those 2,000 (who undoubtedly have been part of every single one of the recent walkouts/etc) are going to think they had a real and genuine impact.

But I'd expect they miscalculated two issues. The first is only having 2,000 people show up on the outrage wagon. "Caving" to that many people does look quite peculiar. And I think the bigger mistake they're making is in miscalculating what they just did to those 2,000. This isn't going to appease them - it's going to give them a sense of entitlement and empowerment leading them to even more actively and aggressively protest against future actions.

Re: Google cancels AI ethics board in response to outcry

#85
post #41
post #35

"[T]he inclusion of a drone company executive had raised debate over use of Google’s AI for military applications." Lovely.

I share your distaste for militarized AI (unless I mistake you?), but if AI are to be used in such applications then competent representation and examination of such use cases by a public ethics body would seem to me to be a good thing.

Which technologies will be used in wars is not determined by you but your opponents.

Re: Google cancels AI ethics board in response to outcry

#86

I thought this twitter thread by Kelsey Piper was pretty good: > as I look through her history I am mostly confused why she was chosen in the first place. She doesn't have any background in tech. She doesn't have any prior writing or research related to AI. No background in the other topics that come up - surveillance, data privacy, international security. She's mostly a culture warrior, so no wonder now we're having…

Interestingly everyone who hasn't done anything technical but wants to ride AI train chooses to become "AI Ethics" person these days. You can look up vast number of these AI ethics "experts" giving talks on this subject without ever having trained a model for anything. So apparently the bar for this "field" is zero experience in anything technical but great ability to hold a microphone and induce FUD in public.

Do you need to be a nuclear physicist to have opinions on ethics of nuclear weapons?

Re: Google cancels AI ethics board in response to outcry

#87

I thought this twitter thread by Kelsey Piper was pretty good: > as I look through her history I am mostly confused why she was chosen in the first place. She doesn't have any background in tech. She doesn't have any prior writing or research related to AI. No background in the other topics that come up - surveillance, data privacy, international security. She's mostly a culture warrior, so no wonder now we're having…

Interestingly everyone who hasn't done anything technical but wants to ride AI train chooses to become "AI Ethics" person these days. You can look up vast number of these AI ethics "experts" giving talks on this subject without ever having trained a model for anything. So apparently the bar for this "field" is zero experience in anything technical but great ability to hold a microphone and induce FUD in public.

I would trust an ai ethicist with a PhD in philosophy or ethics of their ideas were coherent. Tech backgrounds are not necessarily required.

Re: Google cancels AI ethics board in response to outcry

#88
post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is an ethics council. Things like advocating against the right for certain classes of people to exist in public spaces are relevant to deciding if someone should be a member of an ethics council.

> advocating against the right for certain classes of people to exist in public spaces When did she do this?

The Heritage Foundation is famous for their attacks on LGBT people, saying that they shouldn't have children and shouldn't have basic human rights. Literally there are tweets from the exact person in question suggesting that trans people don't exist.

Re: Google cancels AI ethics board in response to outcry

#89
post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is an ethics council. Things like advocating against the right for certain classes of people to exist in public spaces are relevant to deciding if someone should be a member of an ethics council.

> advocating against the right for certain classes of people to exist in public spaces When did she do this?

She hated on trans people. And science.

Re: Google cancels AI ethics board in response to outcry

#90
post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

what is kay cole james' expertise on ai ethics that she should be on the council? is there no other person in computer science, mathematics, privacy research or some professor that is a conservative that holds none of this baggage and says shitty things? and like one of staff at vox said, why bring someone who is entrenched in the political culture war in the first place? you want a set of diverse views. assuming she…

They probably didn't bring her on for her expertise, they brought her on because she's a powerful conservative. Google wants politically powerful friends on both sides of the aisle in light of how much criticism there's been of them lately.

Piling on against a minority of people who can't really fight back is not being "powerful." It's cowardly and weak. It's also unethical.
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