Boeing CEO Dennis Muilenburg Addresses the Ethiopian Airlines Flight 302 Report • Hacker News Board

Re: Boeing CEO Dennis Muilenburg Addresses the Ethiopian Airlines Flight 302 Report

#81

Post by angstrom » Fri, Apr 05, 2019, 1:15 AM UTC

Stryder wrote: post #24

781 wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, then I'm irrational too, because I won't set foot in a 737 MAX after this shitfest. The FAA also lost a lot of trust, for rubber-stamping this. The first accident was maybe understandable. We all know that shit happens. But Boeing has zero excuses for not immediately grounding the whole fleet after, and for putting out that useless recovery procedure which didn't work in this case. They let a deadly plane fly f…

The integrity of engineering excellence should never be sacrificed for profit and/or conveniency in places where it involves human lives. Realistically and pragmatically speaking, you only ever get to have just one single shot at establishing and maintaining that kind of life/death level of trust. Fuck it up, and you're gone- quite literally, mind you. This is some Challenger O-ring type of shitshow. Accidents are on…

Black box high five for the win, amirite?! Roll it back up to the top of the hill and lets see if it records something different...

It's sad, but most faults seem to be like this. First one is treated as an anomaly, second one is treated as the start of a trend. It happens so many times I'm glad I'm not working with human lives.

Re: Boeing CEO Dennis Muilenburg Addresses the Ethiopian Airlines Flight 302 Report

#82

Post by traek » Fri, Apr 05, 2019, 1:17 AM UTC

rmrfrmrf wrote: post #63

drstewart wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The integrity of engineering excellence should never be sacrificed for profit and/or conveniency in places where it involves human lives. That's just unrealistic. Unless you want plane and car rides to cost as much as a trip to space, after all, since everything would need to be engineered to that level of quality.

I continue to be fascinated with consumers who assume the role of shareholder in times of crisis, even against their own interests.

Affordable air travel is in most people's interests.

Re: Boeing CEO Dennis Muilenburg Addresses the Ethiopian Airlines Flight 302 Report

#83

Post by dingo_bat » Fri, Apr 05, 2019, 1:17 AM UTC

This is a grave lapse on Boeing's part. Saying "sorry" doesn't cut it. Someone needs to go to jail and Boeing shouldn't be allowed to sell any more planes until they demonstrate such software blunders will not happen.

Re: Boeing CEO Dennis Muilenburg Addresses the Ethiopian Airlines Flight 302 Report

#84

Post by gpm » Fri, Apr 05, 2019, 1:18 AM UTC

Aloha wrote: post #57

DevX101 wrote: post #3

> We remain confident in the fundamental safety of the 737 MAX He just finished several paragraphs about how the plane and it's software was not safe ("erroneous activation of the MCAS function"), and then arrives at this conclusion? If my car erroneously responds to the pressure on the gas pedal it's not safe.

Would you throw out your computer because of a bad hardware driver? This is effectively a software issue, that will eventually be solved

This is a hardware issue. Lack of redundancy in sensors. Lack of knobs to turn MCAS off without turning off the electric motors that are apparently necessary to control the plane in challenging circumstances (which a hardware failure can put you in).

It's also a training issue, especially with the first flight pilots not being informed about this system.

Maybe it can be worked around via software changes and human training. But the software appears to have done what it was supposed to.

Re: Boeing CEO Dennis Muilenburg Addresses the Ethiopian Airlines Flight 302 Report

#85

Post by ams6110 » Fri, Apr 05, 2019, 1:19 AM UTC

acqq wrote: post #22

Now read again what Boeing issued to the airlines and the pilots after the first crash: https://www.avm-mag.com/faa-issues-emergency-ad-for-boeing-7... "An erroneous AOA input can cause some or all of the following indications and effects:" "IAS DISAGREE alert." The whole "what to do" is then: "Initially, higher control forces may be needed to overcome any stabilizer nose down trim already applied. Electric stabilize…

The pilots didn't actually do that. They did not use electric stabilizer trim to "neutralize control column pitch forces before moving the STAB TRIM CUTOUT switches to CUTOUT" in fact the trim had been run markedly down by MCAS by the time they switched off the electric trim.

Re: Boeing CEO Dennis Muilenburg Addresses the Ethiopian Airlines Flight 302 Report

#86

Post by beeneuf » Fri, Apr 05, 2019, 1:20 AM UTC

Aloha wrote: post #57

DevX101 wrote: post #3

> We remain confident in the fundamental safety of the 737 MAX He just finished several paragraphs about how the plane and it's software was not safe ("erroneous activation of the MCAS function"), and then arrives at this conclusion? If my car erroneously responds to the pressure on the gas pedal it's not safe.

Would you throw out your computer because of a bad hardware driver? This is effectively a software issue, that will eventually be solved

I mean, yeah, if a bad hardware driver could threaten my life in some way (like overheating a component to the point of a fire risk) then I would discontinue use of that machine immediately.

Re: Boeing CEO Dennis Muilenburg Addresses the Ethiopian Airlines Flight 302 Report

#87

Post by PierceJoy » Fri, Apr 05, 2019, 1:22 AM UTC

SilasX wrote: post #35

xiphias2 wrote: post #2

,,We remain confident in the fundamental safety of the 737 MAX.'' Am I irrational for not wanting to be on the first 1-2 years of flights on 737 MAX after it gets its software update?

He could put his safety where his mouth is and vow to only fly on the MAX for the next two years. That would be a much stronger vote of confidence than whatever words his PR firm came up with.

That doesn't really prove anything though. The risk to a specific flight is still quite low. The risk that is concerning is the risk of any 737 Max flight crashing. It would be like a lottery detractor saying "I'll prove that no one wins the lottery by buying a ticket every day, and never winning." Chances are that person won't win. But chances are quite high that someone will win.

Re: Boeing CEO Dennis Muilenburg Addresses the Ethiopian Airlines Flight 302 Report

#88

Post by pcurve » Fri, Apr 05, 2019, 1:23 AM UTC

781 wrote: post #5

xiphias2 wrote: post #2

,,We remain confident in the fundamental safety of the 737 MAX.'' Am I irrational for not wanting to be on the first 1-2 years of flights on 737 MAX after it gets its software update?

Well, then I'm irrational too, because I won't set foot in a 737 MAX after this shitfest. The FAA also lost a lot of trust, for rubber-stamping this. The first accident was maybe understandable. We all know that shit happens. But Boeing has zero excuses for not immediately grounding the whole fleet after, and for putting out that useless recovery procedure which didn't work in this case. They let a deadly plane fly f…

I think lack or major crashes in recent years made them complacent and emboldened them to roll the dice. Then hit snake eyes. Then also may have looked down on the foreign pilots are the airline. Had this been a Southwest plane they may have grounded the plane.

Re: Boeing CEO Dennis Muilenburg Addresses the Ethiopian Airlines Flight 302 Report

#89

Post by treis » Fri, Apr 05, 2019, 1:23 AM UTC

makomk wrote: post #77

dylan604 wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The main thing for me is that NOW pilots will be aware that there is a piece of software running in the background that might fight them. The first thing they will all learn is how to disable it so they can actually fly the airplane. That's even without a software fix. To me, it all comes down to to Boeing being able to self-certify their aircraft, and they knew they were sneaking the "fix" known as MCAS as a way to…

The reason this preliminary report is so damning is that it's evident that the pilots on flight 302 knew this - they realised what was happening, took the necessary steps to disable MCAS, and still couldn't stop the plane from crashing and killing everyone on board.

The took the necessary steps and it was working until they went off script. Whether or not their hand was force because the script stopped working remains to be seen. IMHO, there's little to do except to wait for the full report to come out. The speculation about the crash was wildly wrong and the preliminary report coming out didn't really stop that.

Re: Boeing CEO Dennis Muilenburg Addresses the Ethiopian Airlines Flight 302 Report

#90

Post by neverartful » Fri, Apr 05, 2019, 1:24 AM UTC

vkou wrote: post #8

xiphias2 wrote: post #2

,,We remain confident in the fundamental safety of the 737 MAX.'' Am I irrational for not wanting to be on the first 1-2 years of flights on 737 MAX after it gets its software update?

No, from a cursory reading of the report, it's not entirely clear that software updates are going to fix the problem.

Exactly.

When CEO said "We're taking a comprehensive, disciplined approach, and taking the time, to get the software update right.", I wondered if they would characterize their initial design the same way.

It's shameful to even try to pin it on software. The fundamental problem is that they didn't want to do the right thing by admitting and teaching pilots that this plane has different flight characteristics and they need to train for flying a similar, but different plane.

As long as this MCAS software even exists on the plane, I'll never fly on one again. If they take MCAS out, certify, and train properly then I'll fly on them. Otherwise, no.