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Show HN: I made a platform for journalists to “open source” their fact checking

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Re: Show HN: I made a platform for journalists to “open source” their fact checking

#151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Claas Relotius, the Der Spiegel journalist who won CNN's journalist of the year award who was revelead to be completely inventing stories about people to make enticing click bait. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/dec/19/top-der-spiege...

He either invented sources or made up quotes from real people he never met. How do you expect this platform to remedy that?

Digital signatures from sources would be a nice feature, maybe some kind of trust system such that sources could be kept anonymous.

Re: Show HN: I made a platform for journalists to “open source” their fact checking

#152
post #144
post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree. Whether they were harassing is a matter of opinion. Whether there was a confrontation is a matter of fact, confirmed by the video and photos. If you want to claim the "narrative", you need a link to an actual article with actual quotes. That's how fact-checking works, and your response is failing it badly.

> Whether they were harassing is a matter of opinion But when you report it as a matter of fact in an editorializing headline, then it is a problem. > Whether there was a confrontation is a matter of fact This was not the narrative portrayed, in the slightest bit. Had this been the headline and narrative, I would have had no issue with it, either. The stories that day were "Boy in MAGA hat harasses Native Americans"…

See previous post. If you can't produce links and quotes, then that's just, like, your opinion, man.

Re: Show HN: I made a platform for journalists to “open source” their fact checking

#153
post #109

Awkward question here... can anyone cite an example of a major-media news story that was actually factually wrong in a way that "open source fact checking" could have detected it? Just because a bunch of people believe it's a problem doesn't mean it's a problem. I find the bias, when it exists, is in the presentation, not the facts themselves. And mainstream journalism is really committed to getting the facts right.

You should read through some of the fact checks, especially the first one for Net Neutrality. They address literally this "presentation" aspect.

Re: Show HN: I made a platform for journalists to “open source” their fact checking

#154
post #138
post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree. Whether they were harassing is a matter of opinion. Whether there was a confrontation is a matter of fact, confirmed by the video and photos. If you want to claim the "narrative", you need a link to an actual article with actual quotes. That's how fact-checking works, and your response is failing it badly.

This has been debunked thoroughly. That guy went up to the kids and started beating his drum right in their faces to intimidate them and somehow the media painted the kids as the harasser.

Was his intent to intimidate? Why do you say that? How is that a "fact"? Where did you even hear that story?

Geez, y'all don't understand fact checking at all.

Re: Show HN: I made a platform for journalists to “open source” their fact checking

#155
post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right, I get that. And my concern is that mainstream journalism that actually contradicts public primary sources isn't the actual problem. I believe that it is, in fact, vanishingly rare. Hence my question.

And my concern is that mainstream journalism that actually contradicts public primary sources isn't the actual problem. I believe that it is, in fact, vanishingly rare. Take a look at niche journalism. The bias and narrative pushing is quite massive there. I think the "garbage tier" label given to such organizations is well deserved. Yet, when mainstream journalism gives its attention, it follows the niche journalist…

That's an opinion, not an example.

I asked for examples. I'm getting opinions.

Re: Show HN: I made a platform for journalists to “open source” their fact checking

#156
post #147
post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, no, no. pg is claiming that "embattled" is a journalistic euphemism for "guilty as charged". Sure, it's jargon and rarely used in "real life", but it's generally not inaccurate or deliberately misleading. Someone who is accused yet innocent is still "embattled". Readers assuming guilt is not a problem of fact. It may not even be the journalistic intent.

For that matter, embattled is often used in a context where there's no crime at all involved. A CEO may be embattled because he hasn't been able to turn a company around and the shareholders and board are being restless. In that case, in a sense it's code for on the way out, but only because by the time you get to that point, the handwriting is probably on the wall.

I tried the word "embattled" in Google News. One of the articles that came up was about an embattled tree. Which I'm sure is every bit as guilty as the media suggests.

Re: Show HN: I made a platform for journalists to “open source” their fact checking

#157
post #128
post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The most recent and obvious case in my mind: Covington Catholic Incident: almost every major mainstream media outlet ran with the narrative that the boys were harassing the Native Americans which was based solely on one video clip. No traditional investigative work was done. No one was interviewed (until the damage had been done). Nothing was fact checked. It was just one video, and boom: instant headlines.

I disagree. Whether they were harassing is a matter of opinion. Whether there was a confrontation is a matter of fact, confirmed by the video and photos. If you want to claim the "narrative", you need a link to an actual article with actual quotes. That's how fact-checking works, and your response is failing it badly.

“Vietnam Vet” — that was published by the mainstream media. But the Native American wasn’t a Vietnam vet. He never left the US and, in fact, was AWOL twice. The media used “Vietnam vet” to elicit sympathy, but it wasn’t even factually accurate. The actual facts were ignored in order to promote a particular bias. “AWOL soldier” doesn’t have the same emotional value to the narrative as does “Vietnam combat vet.” The history of the Native American, including past protests and confrontations was highly relevant to the story but instead, the media focused on the the teenagers rather than the professional agitator as well as the hate-group the Black Israelites.[1]

The Covington story was “privileged, white teenage, racist Trump supporters got in a confrontation.” However the facts had to be massaged in order to sell that fiction was what happened. We all know that was the intent of the media and to suggest the reporting was either factual or objective is nonsensical. It’s delusional to suggest that the media treats Trump supporters objectively. Look, for example how the New York Times classifies Joe Biden’s repeated sexual harassment as “tactile politics,” while anyone affiliated with Trump gets no such delicacy in headlines.

It’s absurd to suggest that the Covington story was anything except the media attempting to make those kids look like evil puppy-killers. The vile, racist comments of the Black Israelites on the scene were ignored for the most part and instead media talking heads spent hours analyzing the alleged “smirk” of the white kid with the MAGA hat.

There is a narrative and any reasonably intelligent person can clearly see it.

[1] https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate/intelligence-report/...

Re: Show HN: I made a platform for journalists to “open source” their fact checking

#158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Paul Graham is entitled to his opinion. I am a professional journalist and I disagree. Journalists use the word "embattled" the way Merriam-Webster defines it: "characterized by conflict or controversy." Typically it applies to a person who has been heavily criticized, or accused of wrongdoing at length or by many people. Accurately describing a person as such is not at all the same as the journalist declaring a pers…

You're not engaging with the actual criticism at all. Nobody is disputing that "embattled" is in the dictionary; instead, he's saying that it's journalism jargon that is not actually used in real life.

PG is blaming journalists for what is certainly an anecdotal interpretation of the word. There's no reason for anyone who knows the meaning of the word "embattled" to believe it's castigating.

Re: Show HN: I made a platform for journalists to “open source” their fact checking

#159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Claas Relotius, the Der Spiegel journalist who won CNN's journalist of the year award who was revelead to be completely inventing stories about people to make enticing click bait. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/dec/19/top-der-spiege...

This is actually a very good example of press failure. But also possibly one which shows how difficult it would actually be for "open source" fact checking based on consensus voting to pick up blatant lies. Relotius got away with his spiel for a long time and won awards because none of the people he claimed to have interviewed read his articles (especially not the people who didn't actually exist!). It's also reasona…

How I see it playing out:

1. Individual journalists do not sign up for this, publications would, as an integration for every article.

2. A casual reader from Fergus falls would notice a few weird things, and start raising questions.

3. That would start the snowball into all the other things the 'fake journalist' would be doing, at least for the article. Once you get popular enough, the internet haters will follow through, since anyone with something of a following starts attracting internet haters into their life eventually.

This will have all the general problems all internet comment sections do currently although, like twitter.

Re: Show HN: I made a platform for journalists to “open source” their fact checking

#160
post #109

Awkward question here... can anyone cite an example of a major-media news story that was actually factually wrong in a way that "open source fact checking" could have detected it? Just because a bunch of people believe it's a problem doesn't mean it's a problem. I find the bias, when it exists, is in the presentation, not the facts themselves. And mainstream journalism is really committed to getting the facts right.

The assumption behind this idea isn't that there are no accurate journalism outlets out there, it's that by "open sourcing" their fact checking, these outlets will better stand out, adopting a standard that inaccurate outlets just can't meet.

Right now, outlets are basically asking you to trust their assertions based on their brand. Fewer and fewer readers are inclined to give their trust based on brand (I'm guessing this is because there are just so many outlets/brands now). The way forward is for journalists to earn their readers' trust by showing their work on as many fact checks as possible. It won't be possible for every fact check (such as those involving anonymous sources) but where possible, it'll add a great deal of value.

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