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Ethiopian Airlines 737 MAX Investigation Preliminary Report

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Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737 MAX Investigation Preliminary Report

#21
post #4

This isn't only MCAS issue anymore... If there are issues with manually rectifying trim after it went haywire because of any reason, that might be a problem. Interesting to find out was that an issue with older 737 models, just without severe runaway trim events.

> If there are issues with manually rectifying trim after it went haywire because of any reason, that might be a problem. It's not so much a "problem" as it is "physics". If the stabilizers are forcing the nose down, and the pilot pulls back on the stick (engaging the elevators) to pull the nose up, the forces exerted on the stabilizer are such that, in extreme cases, human force is insufficient to move the manual wh…

> They must cut it at a moment where the stabilizer isn't grossly mistrimmed with respect to level flight, OR they may well need to re-engage it and race the MCAS to get into a close-to-proper trim setup prior to cutting out the stabtrim and assuming manual trim control.

All while keeping the plane in the air, reading the manual, and attempting not to lose composure knowing that the same thing has happened to another flight that lost all hands.

I'm trying very hard to look at this objectively, but this is an extremely bad look for Boeing.

Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737 MAX Investigation Preliminary Report

#22
post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So MCAS put them in a hard to recover position which required electric trim to recover, and as soon as they turned on the electric trim MCAS turned on again and forced them into a crash? Then this is much worse than initially suggested, it means a pilot can be aware of MCAS and still be put in a extremely dangerous position due to the extreme control authority of the module.

Per the article a combination of things put them in that situation. Not just MCAS. Why is everyone so wedded to the narrative that this is the fault of MCAS and nothing else? Complex systems that have millions of man hours spent making them safer don't usually have back to back failures because of one faulty subsystem. We've incrementally refined commercial air travel to the point where single source accidents are ba…

> Why is everyone so wedded to the narrative that this is the fault of MCAS and nothing else?

Because the other factors don't single this flight out, and the plane wouldn't have crashed without MCAS misbehaving, or more fundamentally, without the flawed plane design that required such a system in the first place.

Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737 MAX Investigation Preliminary Report

#23

I really feel as we're entering an era where full automation is the only solution. This current paradigm of the plane telling the pilots "I don't know what to do here - handing it back to you" doesn't make much sense. Do we just need better multi-modal and redundant sensors so the plane isn't flying blind?

This problem was one of too much automation, which decided that the best course of action was to fly the plane into the ground. In a less automated system, the pilots would have been able to enable electrical trim systems without also having their trim control overridden by MCAS and would have been able to recover flight control that way.

Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737 MAX Investigation Preliminary Report

#24

> The crew performed runaway stabilizer checklist and put the stab trim cutout switch to cutout position and confirmed that the manual trim operation was not working. This is very damning to Boeing. It's precisely the procedure they prescribed and intended to mitigate possible MCAS caused trim runaway. In light of the fact that they put this in place as a justification for moving the engines forward without reclassif…

Just out of curiosity, will there actually be any punishments handed out beyond just a slap on the wrist? Or is Boeing far too large of a corp to take on?

Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737 MAX Investigation Preliminary Report

#25
post #3

Indeed looks like they did disable MCAS using the stabilizer trim cutout switches, but the aircraft was trimmed nose down when they did so. Aerodynamic loading prevented manual trimming using the trim wheels. They eventually turned electric trim back on, as they didn't really have any other options, but didn't trim back enough, and left it turned on. At this point the right airspeed indicator (which should be more re…

Layman question -- Does the MCAS system take current height from terrain into account when forcing the nose down?

Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737 MAX Investigation Preliminary Report

#26
The design of this system, from what I've heard so far sounds insane.

For some background, systems intended to automatically override pilot input upon detecting an impending stall have been used on large, complex aircraft for a long time. The most common mechanism is a stick pusher, which mechanically pushes forward on the stick to mimic what a pilot should do about an impending stall. The force of a typical stick pusher is low enough that a pilot can overcome it with arm strength.

A stick pusher, or a pilot pushing forward on the stick is not enough for the aerodynamics of the 737 MAX in certain circumstances. The position of the engines means the thrust tends to push the nose up, and at low speed, the elevator controlled by the stick alone is not enough to push the nose down when nearing a stall. Instead, the trim must be used, which moves the whole horizontal stabilizer rather than just the elevator. That's not part of the procedure on most aircraft, including other 737s, so regulators would not allow pilots rated for 737s to easily transfer their rating to the new aircraft, if they were willing to certify such an aircraft at all.

MCAS is the solution to this problem. It automatically uses the trim to force the nose down with greater authority than the elevator alone could provide. While the concept is sound, the implementation strikes me as reckless.

First, the system uses only one of the two angle of attack sensors to determine that the aircraft is nearing a stall. Such sensors have a fairly high rate of failure relative to the safe operation of a commercial aircraft. As far as I can tell, causing the system to use both sensors is a software change and all models of the aircraft had the required hardware. I can't imagine a good reason the system was designed this way, especially since Boeing has included MCAS on a previous aircraft, the tanker version of the 767, and it did use two sensors in that application.

Second, activating the system automatically, and allowing it to contradict the pilot's attempt to pitch up using the elevator seems like a mistake. While stalls are almost always the result of pilot error, I'm inclined to think automated systems should let humans have the last word. A better design might have been to automatically trim nose-down in response to full forward pressure on the stick at low speed. That could be in combination with a stick pusher providing full forward pressure on the stick when an impending stall is detected in the absence of pilot input to the contrary.

Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737 MAX Investigation Preliminary Report

#27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Per the article a combination of things put them in that situation. Not just MCAS. Why is everyone so wedded to the narrative that this is the fault of MCAS and nothing else? Complex systems that have millions of man hours spent making them safer don't usually have back to back failures because of one faulty subsystem. We've incrementally refined commercial air travel to the point where single source accidents are ba…

MCAS forced the trim to a point where (because of aerodynamics) it was impossible to manually change the trim even after disabling MCAS, and was designed in such a way that it was impossible to engage the electrical trim controls (which could have saved the plane in this case) without also reenabling MCAS.

Flaps out supposedly would have kept MCAS off but the pilots weren't expected to know that.

Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737 MAX Investigation Preliminary Report

#28
post #2

This shouldn't be marked as a dupe since it's the actual report. It sounds like they did everything right. There are two fateful moments: >At 05:41:46, the Captain asked the First-Officer if the trim is functional. The First-Officer has replied that the trim was not working and asked if he could try it manually. The Captain told him to try. At 05:41:54, the First-Officer replied that it is not working At this point t…

The report was the basis for this article and discussion yesterday: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19570378. From Hacker News' perspective, since the report itself was prominently linked in the article and its contents were discussed directly in the thread many times, it qualifies as a duplicate.

Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737 MAX Investigation Preliminary Report

#29
post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Aerodynamic loading prevented manual trimming using the trim wheels. Are the trim wheels mechanically connected to the trim mechanism in the back? Is there no way to trim the horizontal stabilizer electrically without also enabling MCAS? What would happen if the pilots continually pressed the trim up switch on the yoke? That should've prevented MCAS from activating, right? I thought Boeing airplanes were built such…

I thought all jets had to be capable of performing non powered glides (as in no electrical power, not just engine power). I guess that's no longer a requirement.

The planes when setup correctly have a pretty good glide slope actually. When there is no power the pilots can deploy the apu to restore basic power for flight controls.

Re: Ethiopian Airlines 737 MAX Investigation Preliminary Report

#30
post #3

Indeed looks like they did disable MCAS using the stabilizer trim cutout switches, but the aircraft was trimmed nose down when they did so. Aerodynamic loading prevented manual trimming using the trim wheels. They eventually turned electric trim back on, as they didn't really have any other options, but didn't trim back enough, and left it turned on. At this point the right airspeed indicator (which should be more re…

Layman question -- Does the MCAS system take current height from terrain into account when forcing the nose down?

It would appear that it does not.
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