The Streets Were Never Free. Congestion Pricing Finally Makes That Plain • Hacker News Board

Re: The Streets Were Never Free. Congestion Pricing Finally Makes That Plain

#201

Post by hannasanarion » Thu, Apr 04, 2019, 5:26 PM UTC

hourislate wrote: post #53

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> don’t masquerade this as some kind of “economic reckoning” In New York, low-income New Yorkers who own a car (or live in the zone) will be eligible for a waiver [1]. People with disabilities, too, will probably be eligible for a waiver. (Some carve-outs are still being pinned down.) Taxis, Ubers, trucks and cars owned by people who opt to pay hundreds of dollars a month in parking are who will be taxed. Given the u…

How do people feel on a congestion fee for sidewalks. Too many people on sidewalks in NYC making them almost unusable. If you want to walk on a sidewalk during the busiest times you should pay a congestion fee. Why would we stop at just roads?

NYC sidewalks are only congested because 90% of street space is dedicated to cars. On 6th avenue near 42nd, there is 5 feet of sidewalk space that thousands of people have to squeeze onto, while cars enjoy a 6 lane highway totaling 70 feet.

Why do cars need a 6 lane road through the middle of the busiest pedestrian neighborhood in the world?

Re: The Streets Were Never Free. Congestion Pricing Finally Makes That Plain

#202

Post by hannasanarion » Thu, Apr 04, 2019, 5:27 PM UTC

hcurtiss wrote: post #150

bparsons wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some people use the roads a lot more than others. Those people should pay their fair share. Someone who commutes in an SUV from Fairfield to Manhattan every day should have to pay much, much higher fees than someone who rides their bike from Greenpoint to Brooklyn heights. Once (particularly wealthy) people are made to incur the true cost of their lifestyle choices, the hope is that better choices are made.

But, unless they're driving an electric car, wouldn't we expect that they do in the form of gas taxes?

In most states, EV owners pay a lot more in registration fees to make up for the gas tax disparity.

Re: The Streets Were Never Free. Congestion Pricing Finally Makes That Plain

#203

Post by Ancalagon » Thu, Apr 04, 2019, 5:27 PM UTC

DFXLuna wrote: post #34

It's weird to see someone calling roads free when I give the government 25% of my paycheck every month to pay for things like roads. We can't even pass a tax in my town to give necessary funds for road repairs beyond the most basic. I wonder how something like that would fair.

Yes but that 25% is for social security and the bloated healthcare system, roads are extra.

Re: The Streets Were Never Free. Congestion Pricing Finally Makes That Plain

#204

Post by UnFleshedOne » Thu, Apr 04, 2019, 5:28 PM UTC

hcurtiss wrote: post #150

bparsons wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some people use the roads a lot more than others. Those people should pay their fair share. Someone who commutes in an SUV from Fairfield to Manhattan every day should have to pay much, much higher fees than someone who rides their bike from Greenpoint to Brooklyn heights. Once (particularly wealthy) people are made to incur the true cost of their lifestyle choices, the hope is that better choices are made.

But, unless they're driving an electric car, wouldn't we expect that they do in the form of gas taxes?

When was the last time US raised gas taxes? I understand those weren't indexed to inflation for a long while, not to mention adjustments for changing usage patterns.

Re: The Streets Were Never Free. Congestion Pricing Finally Makes That Plain

#205

Post by WhompingWindows » Thu, Apr 04, 2019, 5:29 PM UTC

wutbrodo wrote: post #155

otikik wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What jumped to my attention from your comment is that tolls seem to bother you more than public transportation not being a suitable option. I live in Madrid, which has a metropolitan population of 6.5 million (compared to Sydney's 5.2m). I can get pretty much everywhere from anywhere in about 1 hour, combining metro and buses. So when I want to visit a friend, I just go out the door, and walk to the metro station. If…

Exactly. I'm still waiting for a day I see a full-throated defense of a car-centric system that frankly doest rely on myopia about the second-order effects of the system. Sure, given that you're in a city designed around owning cars, owning a car has advantages: that's almost tautological. But policy needs to think at the societal level, which includes all the effects that you take for granted as part of the backgrou…

They definitely won't engage in that level of abstract thinking, given so many of them have cars that are already too expensive for their take-home. The number of 72 month terms on fancy cars, unbelievable to me.

Re: The Streets Were Never Free. Congestion Pricing Finally Makes That Plain

#206

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Apr 04, 2019, 5:30 PM UTC

pokeymcsnatch wrote: post #140

bparsons wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some people use the roads a lot more than others. Those people should pay their fair share. Someone who commutes in an SUV from Fairfield to Manhattan every day should have to pay much, much higher fees than someone who rides their bike from Greenpoint to Brooklyn heights. Once (particularly wealthy) people are made to incur the true cost of their lifestyle choices, the hope is that better choices are made.

That's the cost of having a functioning society. I don't have kids, yet I still pay school taxes because even though I'm not participating in that particular aspect of society, I still benefit from it. Public biking infrastructure wouldn't be possible without the roads and right-aways we already have for cars and pedestrians; someone only using a mile of roadway on their daily commute is benefiting from the entirety…

[deleted]

Re: The Streets Were Never Free. Congestion Pricing Finally Makes That Plain

#207

Post by hannasanarion » Thu, Apr 04, 2019, 5:30 PM UTC

WillPostForFood wrote: post #73

the_gastropod wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bear in mind only ~45% of NYC residents own cars. Yet, we all pay taxes to pay for maintaining their infrastructure. Everyone paying taxes to support some is fine when that thing is beneficial to society at large (e.g., public education, fire departments, welfare, etc.) I don't think driving counts as an activity that should be subsidized by the taxpayer.

On the other hand, drivers pay ~$.45 a gallon in gas tax, and at least 30% of that goes to the MTA.

Usage taxes (gas and registration fees) only cover 54% of road expenditures in New York. The other 46% comes out of the public fund that could be spent elsewhere.[1]

1. https://taxfoundation.org/statelocal-road-spending-covered-u...

Re: The Streets Were Never Free. Congestion Pricing Finally Makes That Plain

#208

Post by jellicle » Thu, Apr 04, 2019, 5:31 PM UTC

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #190

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Congestion pricing doesn't actually fix any of that, it just squeezes even harder on the people who the lack of alternatives Every other city's experience with congestion pricing shows decreased car use in favor of alternatives. Effects on local grocery prices were minimal. And in the end, revenues paled in comparison to the health, infrastructure, policing, quality of life and economic costs of traffic congestion.

> Every other city's experience with congestion pricing shows decreased car use in favor of alternatives. Suppose the forest is on fire and instead of spending money to put the fire out, we just ignore it. Then a bunch of wolves come into the city to flee from the fire. Someone suggests that we introduce bears to the city in order to drive out the wolves. Many people point out what a terrible idea that is, but some c…

Yes, urging people to walk/cycle/bus instead of driving around in single-passenger cars is exactly the same as filling your city with bears.

Re: The Streets Were Never Free. Congestion Pricing Finally Makes That Plain

#209

Post by crooked-v » Thu, Apr 04, 2019, 5:31 PM UTC

jimmaswell wrote: post #198

crooked-v wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the whole reason congestion charges exist: to get people to weigh comfort and laziness against personal cost. > no reasonable way to listen to music ...headphones?

Listening to headphones while bicycling isn't safe, and playing it from a speaker where everyone around you will hear it feels rude.

I've heard some good things about neck speakers with shaped sound having a minimal ambient impact, but that does get a bit pricier.

Re: The Streets Were Never Free. Congestion Pricing Finally Makes That Plain

#210

Post by andys627 » Thu, Apr 04, 2019, 5:31 PM UTC

Jorge1o1 wrote: post #31

The streets were never free. We paid for it with our tax money. (Not to mention our 22 trillion dollar public debt) I don’t think people expect streets to be free in the same way you don’t expect the police department to be free, the fire department to be free, public schools, etc. In any case, my point is, we paid for the streets with our tax money and our debt, so don’t masquerade this as some kind of “economic rec…

If you order a Big Mac at McDonalds and hand them $0.25, you haven't paid for for your Big Mac.