Why Don't Americans Understand How Poor Their Lives Are? • Hacker News Board

Re: Why Don't Americans Understand How Poor Their Lives Are?

#271

Post by auiya » Thu, Apr 04, 2019, 3:50 PM UTC

frontloadpro wrote: post #136

keiferski wrote: post #72

As an American who has lived in Europe for 5+ years: the single biggest issue with the States is that everything is filtered through a money-first mentality. Reading a book? It better be nonfiction, because fiction “isn’t real” and won’t help you get ahead. Writing a book? It’s only a success if it’s a best-seller. Studying a new language? Only worth it if you can monetize it somehow. Hate your job? Not a problem if…

Is this a real thing? My life is my job, family, side projects, and fun. I don't know where you lived, but none of the people I know, Engineers and programmers think that they should be reading non fiction instead of playing video games.

> none of the people I know, Engineers and programmers think that they should be reading non fiction instead of playing video games.

Worth noting, playing video games has also been monetized.

Re: Why Don't Americans Understand How Poor Their Lives Are?

#272

Post by auiya » Thu, Apr 04, 2019, 3:53 PM UTC

westpfelia wrote: post #98

keiferski wrote: post #72

As an American who has lived in Europe for 5+ years: the single biggest issue with the States is that everything is filtered through a money-first mentality. Reading a book? It better be nonfiction, because fiction “isn’t real” and won’t help you get ahead. Writing a book? It’s only a success if it’s a best-seller. Studying a new language? Only worth it if you can monetize it somehow. Hate your job? Not a problem if…

i've been in Germany now for 14 months. At this point my biggest complaint is the entire lack of Taco Bell. We have Pizza Hut and KFC Yum corp... WHERE IS MY GERMAN TACO BELL!? Some nights I Dont want to eat Kebab for my late night drunk food. Sometimes I want 'tacos' and 'burritos'.

They do have them at American military bases. There's one at KMMC on Ramstein Air Base for instance.

Re: Why Don't Americans Understand How Poor Their Lives Are?

#273

Post by mnm1 » Thu, Apr 04, 2019, 3:56 PM UTC

seibelj wrote: post #20

> In London, Paris, Berlin, I hop on the train, head to the cafe — it’s the afternoon, and nobody’s gotten to work until 9am, and even then, maybe not until 10 — order a carefully made coffee and a newly baked croissant, do some writing, pick up some fresh groceries, maybe a meal or two, head home — now it’s 6 or 7, and everyone else has already gone home around 5 — and watch something interesting, maybe a documentar…

Great. We start a lot of companies while the lives of people in and also around those companies are destroyed by them. I don't understand this fetish for businesses that mostly destroy people's lives while not even providing a living wage in most cases. That's not something to brag about; that's something to be ashamed about as a society and a culture. It's not just the employees, but everyone's lives that are affected. We let these businesses pollute and get away with murder and when we try to change them, we can't because we let them write our laws and buy our politicians. In most places lobbying is called bribing and corruption. It still happens but at least it's not legal. If you think starting companies is the epitome of what a society can do, that's a sad state of affairs and a shortsighted view of the effects. But I bet you think you'll be the CEO and what happens to everyone else doesn't matter because you'll have a cushy life. Exactly the typical American viewpoint this article decries. Just a bunch of embarrassed millionaires (or should it be billionaires now?) indeed.

Re: Why Don't Americans Understand How Poor Their Lives Are?

#274

Post by dougmwne » Thu, Apr 04, 2019, 3:59 PM UTC

cloverich wrote: post #257

dougmwne wrote: post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's sure nice to think so, and I thank you for stating this viewpoint so clearly. I think a lot about the line between rich and poor, launch and crash. I've come to think that line is largely in our own heads but also entirely out of our control. Someone born poor will be born into an other reality of poverty. Every person they love will have no money, education or resume and will have crashed against unmoving walls…

I agree to the advantages / disadvantages in general, but I think a lot of people push back because it does not jive with personal experience. In my case, my parents grew up poor with blue collar immigrant parents, but became successful and (in my fathers case) eventually wealthy. Conversely, growing up I knew _many_ people who grew up with much more financial and family stability than I had, who just threw it all aw…

That's fair, and I don't mean to sound absolute because most things in life are not.

https://www.epi.org/publication/usa-lags-peer-countries-mobi...

"U.S. mobility is among the lowest of major industrialized economies."

So in other words, birth privilege is strongly correlated with future earnings in the USA, but less so in other industrialized countries. We still have more economic mobility than many countries, but we should say the "Nordic Dream" instead of "American Dream."

Re: Why Don't Americans Understand How Poor Their Lives Are?

#275

Post by netsharc » Thu, Apr 04, 2019, 4:03 PM UTC

wozniacki wrote: post #88

cribbles wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> One reason that Europe has very few innovative new companies created in the last 25 years is that everyone is at the coffee shop writing poetry. This does not dispute the central point of the quoted piece, which is that the quality of life of most Americans is very poor contrast to that of the average person in some subset of European countries. I would wager that most coffee shop employees are more concerned with…

It may be that Europeans are deincentivized from creating enormously overvalued startups because their quality of life is much better Come on you didn't even have a ride-hailing service like Uber and relied on those stodgy black cabs. Ireland still doesn't have Uber or Lyft.[1] [1] Does Uber or Lyft exist in Dublin?? https://www.tripadvisor.com/ShowTopic-g186591-i88-k11258020-...

It's not like Uber or Lyft are super innovative ideas. They probably got VC money because it's a way of exploiting people's lack of employment and math skills to profit off cheap labour and zero maintenance cost for hardware (taxis). One result for "the math for uber": https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/hidden-costs-driving-uber-joh...

Or even: https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/04/02/technology/ub...

As for the other startups in SF, I like this quote:

https://www.theguardian.com/news/2018/apr/17/get-rich-quick-...

> My idea was to pitch a tech startup and get obscenely rich while writing a book about how to pitch a tech startup and get obscenely rich – the Silicon Valley way.

> To save money, I took to cooking my own meals most of the time. This was when I discovered that it was much easier to launch a tech startup if you could afford to always have food delivered and never had to deal with mundane chores such as doing laundry, washing dishes or buying groceries. As one Twitter wag observed, San Francisco’s “tech culture is focused on solving one problem: what is my mother no longer doing for me?”

Re: Why Don't Americans Understand How Poor Their Lives Are?

#276

Post by lr4444lr » Thu, Apr 04, 2019, 4:08 PM UTC

exelius wrote: post #210

lr4444lr wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We have publicly funded elections in NYC. It doesn't the change the overall system very much.

It doesn’t work because the entire system above it takes massive amounts of private money, which influence downballot races. The parties spend a lot of money to raise the profile of a few candidates in a state (people can only remember a few names anyway), then leverage their popularity to endorse candidates in downballot races. In practice, whatever local candidates supported by the largest party-sponsored get-out-t…

Well what are you going to do, give out the tens of thousands to anyone who shows up and fills out a form to run for office? There has to be a minimum threshold for the relevant managing agency to determine which candidates are serious. Meeting that minimum takes money and influence.

Re: Why Don't Americans Understand How Poor Their Lives Are?

#277

Post by amaccuish » Thu, Apr 04, 2019, 4:12 PM UTC

spoovy wrote: post #219

bepotts wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Americans don't believe the onus is on the whole to make sure the individual lives a happy life. We just don't have the collectivist culture the Europeans have. I think this is a great thing, and is why America is where most of the innovation, cultural, and political power is. I personally have lower taxes, high quality healthcare, and live in an awesome location, and I got all of that through an education and traini…

I'm European and I'd love to live in the USA; if I put the same effort in there as I have done here my quality of life would be so much better. I've worked incredibly hard all my life in the UK (and I've been successful at work -- something I have to remind myself of regularly) and it's got me practically nowhere. I'm taxed to the eyeballs (this year I'll pay approx 70% of my turnover in taxes of one sort or another)…

As another UK citizen, the problems are our government, and a bit of a european oddity tbh.

E.g. just to take one of your points, I've found trains in germany and france far better than ours.

Re: Why Don't Americans Understand How Poor Their Lives Are?

#278

Post by netsharc » Thu, Apr 04, 2019, 4:15 PM UTC

wozniacki wrote: post #131

tonyedgecombe wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

UK homicide rate: 1.20 per 100,000 German homicide rate: 1.18 per 100,000 US homicide rate: 5.35 per 100,000 Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intention...

Well would you care to clarify how well these fine folks are doing in various European capitals while youre at it? Surely they are neither inking poetry at tony cafes nor building businesses, now are they? [1][2][3] [1] Benefits Street S01E01 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GqvsF2bBu4o [2] The Streets of Paris https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z1Js8wntdk4 [3] Only Two Men Convicted After 1,200 Sexual Assaults In Cologn…

To cite Benefits Street to say the whole of Europe is like that is like concluding the whole of the US is a shithole by looking at 1 street in Alabama where most of the residents are opioid-addicts , or that it's a Somalia-like warzone after looking at Chicago's south side...

Re: Why Don't Americans Understand How Poor Their Lives Are?

#279

Post by Agustus » Thu, Apr 04, 2019, 4:19 PM UTC

SolaceQuantum wrote: post #253

pnutjam wrote: post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The message of American conservatism is, "I've got mine, go get yours". Meanwhile the gots are pulling up the ladder behind them wherever they can. This message tends to resonate with people with little empathy and imagination. They can only see their own experience and find it impossible to imagine another's could be different. Basically, these people are kind of dumb. They don't notice the ladder being pulled away…

For those more economically minded: We know that 1$ given to poverty will return the economy somewhere along $1.12, while $1 given to wealth will return the economy somewhere along $0.7. There requires no empathy to conclude that providing for our neediest appears to be economically beneficial for everyone, assuming economic growth is a good thing. I understand and accept that certain poeple do not give a damn about…

How can a dollar taken from me by the government and given to a poor person generate a positive cash flow overall? Has no one taken economics 101 when they get to government that they cannot understand the broken windows policy that Baathist put forward?

Step 1. I earn money.

Step 2. The government makes fallacious claim using whatever economist dujour is will to prostate themselves to the political party in need of economic justification (no worries both parties here in America have them).

Step 3. The government taxes me based on this reason a dollar. I am negative a dollar that I may have spent on something.

Step 4. My dollar is used to pay the administrative and bureaucratic needs of the system, god bless them if they can do it for less than thirty cents (after healthcare, salaries, fringe benefits, building costs, etc.) my dollar is down to $0.70.

Step 4. The money is given to a person in the lower quartile who then spends the $0.70.

After this process, anyone is going to say with a straight face that there is an overall increase of 12% to my dollar that was taken from me?

What if I was going to save my dollars up to start a business, which could really create wealth, instead I have to save up longer to start it.

If the economists were honest with that statistic, they would admit it is not the percent increase but the turn around time to spend the money, or a pull forward to quickly juice the economy.

Examples of the government being spectacularly wrong about telling me why they need to listen to economists:

1. Cash for Clunkers, hurt the poor with a destruction of used cars, pulled forward purchases.

2. Stimulus 2, is shown to have no impact on the economy.

3. Trade Tariffs, supposedly to help protect industries, they just happen to be the industries that are rent seeking. Hurts the poor by increasing prices.

4. Minimum wage: started for racist reasons, still has a disparate racial impact.

Re: Why Don't Americans Understand How Poor Their Lives Are?

#280

Post by Frost1x » Thu, Apr 04, 2019, 4:20 PM UTC

SolaceQuantum wrote: post #253

pnutjam wrote: post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The message of American conservatism is, "I've got mine, go get yours". Meanwhile the gots are pulling up the ladder behind them wherever they can. This message tends to resonate with people with little empathy and imagination. They can only see their own experience and find it impossible to imagine another's could be different. Basically, these people are kind of dumb. They don't notice the ladder being pulled away…

For those more economically minded: We know that 1$ given to poverty will return the economy somewhere along $1.12, while $1 given to wealth will return the economy somewhere along $0.7. There requires no empathy to conclude that providing for our neediest appears to be economically beneficial for everyone, assuming economic growth is a good thing. I understand and accept that certain poeple do not give a damn about…

Do you have references for those figures? I'm quite interested.

I'm especially interested in how those figures account for the feedback loop as the poor typically work for the wealthy, so I expect the gap in those figures is potentially larger.