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The Streets Were Never Free. Congestion Pricing Finally Makes That Plain

nytimes.com

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Re: The Streets Were Never Free. Congestion Pricing Finally Makes That Plain

#61

Post by aqme28 »

dsfyu404ed wrote: post #10
tarr11 wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“freedom of movement” should be free as in speech, not free as in beer.

"Free as in speech" is very, very close to "free as in beer". For all practical purposes it doesn't cost me anything more than my time to exercise my free speech rights. Something that's nominally "free" from direct government control but the government gets to dictate the monetary cost of using it is not free by either definition. Anything that increases the monetary cost of freedom of movement (time is not such a b…

The freedom of speech analogy is pretty good.

Yes you can talk freely, but if you want to say something louder than everyone else, you typically have to pay for advertising or a platform.

You can move freely, but if you want to move faster/farther than others, you have to pay for it.

Re: The Streets Were Never Free. Congestion Pricing Finally Makes That Plain

#62

Post by RandallBrown »

sek wrote: post #43

This will be absolutely necessary when cars are self-driving. Instead of parking they will just drift around the block when you buy something for example. Also there will be empty Uber cars drifting around to be close if somebody needs it. On top you won't worry so much about traffic if you can sleep in you car or do something else. Driving was always limited by the costs of somebody sitting behind the wheel. Look ho…

I think midtown manhattan is a pretty good example of what self driving cars will look like. Most of the vehicles are taxis, ride shares, or delivery trucks. Very few of them ever park longer than to drop something off.

Re: The Streets Were Never Free. Congestion Pricing Finally Makes That Plain

#63

Post by GuiA »

jrockway wrote: post #37
i_am_proteus wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also, there wouldn't be many lunch options because delivery services wouldn't be able to use cars and trucks.

No food delivery in New York uses cars and trucks. They all use ebikes. (Which were illegal for years, but that stopped nobody from using them.)

How do the ingredients get to the restaurant for preparation?

Re: The Streets Were Never Free. Congestion Pricing Finally Makes That Plain

#64

Post by WillPostForFood »

CalRobert wrote: post #54
Jorge1o1 wrote: post #31

The streets were never free. We paid for it with our tax money. (Not to mention our 22 trillion dollar public debt) I don’t think people expect streets to be free in the same way you don’t expect the police department to be free, the fire department to be free, public schools, etc. In any case, my point is, we paid for the streets with our tax money and our debt, so don’t masquerade this as some kind of “economic rec…

OK, how about "it's a way to make sure people who need the road most are the ones who get to use it" Kind of how parking meters are FANTASTIC because they mean I can finally get a damn space for the rare occasion when I rent a van or car and need to park in front of my flat. I just wish they'd raise prices on my street because it's still tough sometimes.

"it's a way to make sure people who need the road most are the ones who get to use it"

It is too regressive to achieve that end. If you have a lot of money, it is a trivial cost for convenience. If you are poor, but would really benefit from road access, you still may not be able to afford it. You could easily frame this as "keep the poor off the road so the rich don't have to deal with traffic".

Re: The Streets Were Never Free. Congestion Pricing Finally Makes That Plain

#65

Post by alex_anglin »

hourislate wrote: post #53
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> don’t masquerade this as some kind of “economic reckoning” In New York, low-income New Yorkers who own a car (or live in the zone) will be eligible for a waiver [1]. People with disabilities, too, will probably be eligible for a waiver. (Some carve-outs are still being pinned down.) Taxis, Ubers, trucks and cars owned by people who opt to pay hundreds of dollars a month in parking are who will be taxed. Given the u…

How do people feel on a congestion fee for sidewalks. Too many people on sidewalks in NYC making them almost unusable. If you want to walk on a sidewalk during the busiest times you should pay a congestion fee. Why would we stop at just roads?

Two reasons would be that ealking doesn't pollute and is healthy activity.

Re: The Streets Were Never Free. Congestion Pricing Finally Makes That Plain

#66

Post by scrose »

hourislate wrote: post #53
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> don’t masquerade this as some kind of “economic reckoning” In New York, low-income New Yorkers who own a car (or live in the zone) will be eligible for a waiver [1]. People with disabilities, too, will probably be eligible for a waiver. (Some carve-outs are still being pinned down.) Taxis, Ubers, trucks and cars owned by people who opt to pay hundreds of dollars a month in parking are who will be taxed. Given the u…

How do people feel on a congestion fee for sidewalks. Too many people on sidewalks in NYC making them almost unusable. If you want to walk on a sidewalk during the busiest times you should pay a congestion fee. Why would we stop at just roads?

Because 20 people can and do fit into the same space that a single SUV occupied by one person takes up trawling for a fare through Midtown, yet 70+ percent of the streetscape is allocated to accommodate that SUV.

Also keep in mind pedestrians have to share space with sidewalk planters, outdoor seating, trash bags, and many times, cars parked partially on the sidewalk, making the usable walking space less than 10% of the size of the total street space, yet still allowing exponentially more people to move faster than the cars the street was designed for.

Re: The Streets Were Never Free. Congestion Pricing Finally Makes That Plain

#67

Post by the_gastropod »

hourislate wrote: post #53
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> don’t masquerade this as some kind of “economic reckoning” In New York, low-income New Yorkers who own a car (or live in the zone) will be eligible for a waiver [1]. People with disabilities, too, will probably be eligible for a waiver. (Some carve-outs are still being pinned down.) Taxis, Ubers, trucks and cars owned by people who opt to pay hundreds of dollars a month in parking are who will be taxed. Given the u…

How do people feel on a congestion fee for sidewalks. Too many people on sidewalks in NYC making them almost unusable. If you want to walk on a sidewalk during the busiest times you should pay a congestion fee. Why would we stop at just roads?

Walking is the most efficient mode of transportation, with regards to space used. The problem of crowded sidewalks is relieved by expanding the sidewalks at the cost of space for cars.

Re: The Streets Were Never Free. Congestion Pricing Finally Makes That Plain

#68

Post by l1ambda »

I post something like this every time the congestion pricing subject comes up. We have congestion pricing in Minneapolis / St Paul and it just works. If I'm in a hurry, I have the option to choose to use the priced lane. We're rolling it out to all of the major highways (it's on 3 of them so far). I wish we had it on more lanes on all highways already, because what is the point of having a 60mph road if most of the time you are barely going 20mph, or trip lengths are otherwise completely unpredictable? It's also particularly important to people who might have to travel to multiple jobs, or people with children in school/day care, when consistency in travel time is extremely valuable to them.

There is a concept in economics called spontaneous order. Once the cost of congestion becomes apparent through the price mechanism, then society can reconfigure itself to adapt to it. You just have to have the price mechanism in place to signal it. People will figure it out and adapt once you have implemented congestion pricing. Practically every medium size or larger city in America has terrible traffic congestion problems.

Importantly, you have to resist the temptation to set a price ceiling (like Houston did at $8), as it will not work effectively because it will not allow the price mechanism to work and will cause a shortage of road capacity and you end up with no material change and basically a bad tax. (E.g., the true cost of congestion spurs demand for apartments and transit options near the city center, which in turn reduces traffic congestion.) Also important that it is purely congestion pricing and not resulting in crony government. Changes in laws and zoning and public transit will occur subsequently.

I am excited for NYC to pilot this and hope it becomes a success for that city.

Re: The Streets Were Never Free. Congestion Pricing Finally Makes That Plain

#69

Post by yardie »

i_am_proteus wrote: post #25
dec0dedab0de wrote: post #12

When I worked in a major city I would go on a half-joke rant anytime someone brought up traffic, parking,or obesity. If I were somehow the king of a major city, I would have a giant parking lot on the outside, and ban all cars. You could buy day passes if you need access to the roads to move or something, but it would be discouraged. People would walk more, and be healthier, The air would be higher quality, and most…

Also, there wouldn't be many lunch options because delivery services wouldn't be able to use cars and trucks.

So restaurants, bars, and taverns didn't exist until after the automobile was invented. Got it!

Re: The Streets Were Never Free. Congestion Pricing Finally Makes That Plain

#70

Post by gerry_shaw »

dec0dedab0de wrote: post #12

When I worked in a major city I would go on a half-joke rant anytime someone brought up traffic, parking,or obesity. If I were somehow the king of a major city, I would have a giant parking lot on the outside, and ban all cars. You could buy day passes if you need access to the roads to move or something, but it would be discouraged. People would walk more, and be healthier, The air would be higher quality, and most…

That's exactly what the plan looks like at http://www.carfree.com
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