The Streets Were Never Free. Congestion Pricing Finally Makes That Plain • Hacker News Board

Re: The Streets Were Never Free. Congestion Pricing Finally Makes That Plain

#31

Post by Jorge1o1 » Thu, Apr 04, 2019, 2:34 PM UTC

The streets were never free. We paid for it with our tax money. (Not to mention our 22 trillion dollar public debt)

I don’t think people expect streets to be free in the same way you don’t expect the police department to be free, the fire department to be free, public schools, etc.

In any case, my point is, we paid for the streets with our tax money and our debt, so don’t masquerade this as some kind of “economic reckoning” where the people are FINALLY going to have to pay for those roads the government’s been giving away for free for so long.

Because that’s just not true.

Re: The Streets Were Never Free. Congestion Pricing Finally Makes That Plain

#32

Post by zacharyautin11 » Thu, Apr 04, 2019, 2:35 PM UTC

I am impressed with the good title. Article speaks to unspoken history of purposefully hidden transportation costs that promote car sales and urban sprawl to this day. Bring back the electric streetcar

Re: The Streets Were Never Free. Congestion Pricing Finally Makes That Plain

#33

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Apr 04, 2019, 2:36 PM UTC

dec0dedab0de wrote: post #16

Xylakant wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your freedom to drive where ever you choose on the fastest route infringes on freedoms of others, for example: * their freedom to drive on the fastest route possible * their freedom not to have a large road in front of their home * their freedom not to have their taxes invested in a road infrastructure ballooned to a level that they might not need * their freedom to live in a world that is not inflicted by global war…

I don't think your examples really count as freedoms. I agree with your point, but I don't think you need to stretch the definition of a word to make it.

[deleted]

Re: The Streets Were Never Free. Congestion Pricing Finally Makes That Plain

#34

Post by DFXLuna » Thu, Apr 04, 2019, 2:36 PM UTC

It's weird to see someone calling roads free when I give the government 25% of my paycheck every month to pay for things like roads.

We can't even pass a tax in my town to give necessary funds for road repairs beyond the most basic. I wonder how something like that would fair.

Re: The Streets Were Never Free. Congestion Pricing Finally Makes That Plain

#35

Post by lloydde » Thu, Apr 04, 2019, 2:36 PM UTC

idlewords wrote: post #6

dannyw wrote: post #3

It's sad to see congestion pricing in America. I had hoped that the long-lived cultural freedom of driving would keep it at bay for longer, but I guess not anymore. I live in Sydney. It takes a 45 minute drive to visit a family member, who is sick and homebound. To do so in the shortest and least congested route, I must pay 3 tolls: $14.85 total, one way; $30 dollars a trip. Public transport is not a suitable option.…

You seem to be describing congestion pricing working as intended. To go by the shortest, least congested route, you have to pay the tolls. If the tolls weren't there, it would not take you 45 minutes to make this trip. The real problem, as you point out, is the absence of adequate public transit.

Bizarre, that this response is downvoted. As this response deals most directly with the Math of the situation.

Re: The Streets Were Never Free. Congestion Pricing Finally Makes That Plain

#36

Post by dsfyu404ed » Thu, Apr 04, 2019, 2:36 PM UTC

ch4s3 wrote: post #11

dannyw wrote: post #3

It's sad to see congestion pricing in America. I had hoped that the long-lived cultural freedom of driving would keep it at bay for longer, but I guess not anymore. I live in Sydney. It takes a 45 minute drive to visit a family member, who is sick and homebound. To do so in the shortest and least congested route, I must pay 3 tolls: $14.85 total, one way; $30 dollars a trip. Public transport is not a suitable option.…

Congestion pricing is essentially a usage fee, and is highly efficient from an economic perspective. Without charging drivers for roads they get paid for out of general funds. There’s nothing free about non-drivers subsidizing private transportation. Furthermore, at artificially low prices, more people drive until congestion is unmanageable. Without that pricing your 45 minute drive might balloon to twice that amount…

Everything has to be paid for at the end of the day. Personally I think all transit (regardless of who owns the rolling stock and whether the tires are rubber or steel) should come out of the general fund because everyone benefits from a robust transit network.

Congestion is not a big deal. People willing to put up with it will put up with it. People not willing to will use the resource at different times. You will never have a system that does not get congested at peak times. The more capacity you have the less time the system will run at peak capacity (compare rush hour start/end times across cities to see this). Think of it like dumping a 5gal bucket into the sink and system capacity being the drain size. This statement applies to road, rail and everything else.

Re: The Streets Were Never Free. Congestion Pricing Finally Makes That Plain

#37

Post by jrockway » Thu, Apr 04, 2019, 2:37 PM UTC

i_am_proteus wrote: post #25

dec0dedab0de wrote: post #12

When I worked in a major city I would go on a half-joke rant anytime someone brought up traffic, parking,or obesity. If I were somehow the king of a major city, I would have a giant parking lot on the outside, and ban all cars. You could buy day passes if you need access to the roads to move or something, but it would be discouraged. People would walk more, and be healthier, The air would be higher quality, and most…

Also, there wouldn't be many lunch options because delivery services wouldn't be able to use cars and trucks.

No food delivery in New York uses cars and trucks. They all use ebikes. (Which were illegal for years, but that stopped nobody from using them.)

Re: The Streets Were Never Free. Congestion Pricing Finally Makes That Plain

#38

Post by vorpalhex » Thu, Apr 04, 2019, 2:37 PM UTC

i_am_proteus wrote: post #25

dec0dedab0de wrote: post #12

When I worked in a major city I would go on a half-joke rant anytime someone brought up traffic, parking,or obesity. If I were somehow the king of a major city, I would have a giant parking lot on the outside, and ban all cars. You could buy day passes if you need access to the roads to move or something, but it would be discouraged. People would walk more, and be healthier, The air would be higher quality, and most…

Also, there wouldn't be many lunch options because delivery services wouldn't be able to use cars and trucks.

And all the restaurants would have to be on the outside of the city to get their deliveries.

Re: The Streets Were Never Free. Congestion Pricing Finally Makes That Plain

#39

Post by notacoward » Thu, Apr 04, 2019, 2:37 PM UTC

dannyw wrote: post #3

It's sad to see congestion pricing in America. I had hoped that the long-lived cultural freedom of driving would keep it at bay for longer, but I guess not anymore. I live in Sydney. It takes a 45 minute drive to visit a family member, who is sick and homebound. To do so in the shortest and least congested route, I must pay 3 tolls: $14.85 total, one way; $30 dollars a trip. Public transport is not a suitable option.…

I think you're mixing up two meanings of "free" here. Sure, your drive is not free as in beer, but it's still free as in speech. The whole point of the OP is that your drive was never free as in beer. Somebody has always been paying for it. It might not make sense for every road to be a toll road, but it makes even less sense for none to be.

It's funny how many people think the relationship between prices, supply, and demand is just the bee's knees ... until it comes to use taxes or fees that directly affect their own behavior.

Re: The Streets Were Never Free. Congestion Pricing Finally Makes That Plain

#40

Post by bluescrn » Thu, Apr 04, 2019, 2:38 PM UTC

matt4077 wrote: post #23

dannyw wrote: post #3

It's sad to see congestion pricing in America. I had hoped that the long-lived cultural freedom of driving would keep it at bay for longer, but I guess not anymore. I live in Sydney. It takes a 45 minute drive to visit a family member, who is sick and homebound. To do so in the shortest and least congested route, I must pay 3 tolls: $14.85 total, one way; $30 dollars a trip. Public transport is not a suitable option.…

You’re arguing against congestion pricing in lower Manhattan by citing the inadequacy of public transport in Sydney? In any case: in high density environments such as NY and, yes, Sydney, public transport is the obviously superior option. In Manhattan it is so de facto: current subway trouble nonewithstanding, it is still superior to taking your car into the center. Car traffic in MH moves at about pedestrian streets…

If you introduce high enough congestion charging (to significantly reduce congestion), those rich bankers will get back in their cars and small businesses relying on the roads will be forced to close.

We really do risk heading into a ‘roads are for the richest’ future. We need to accept that the car isn’t going away, that public transport cannot work well in many situations, and build more road capacity for an electric and maybe self-driving future.

And encourage personal light electric vehicles (electric bikes/scooters/skateboards) instead of fearing/banning them!